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The FBI engaged in similar militarized theater for the recent arrest of Roger Stone. Dozens of armored SWAT officers, automatic rifles, and a CNN war correspond

The FBI engaged in similar militarized theater for the recent arrest of Roger Stone. Dozens of armored SWAT officers, automatic rifles, and a CNN war correspondent van parked outside - all to arrest a solitary man sleeping his pajamas. For historical context, this trend is due to the pendulum swinging back too far in reaction to the Miami FBI shootout [1], where officers were woefully outgunned. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

VectorLock 8y ago
Roger Stone had posted multiple videos of him at a shooting range so its reasonable for them to assume he was in the possession of firearms.
- byset 8y ago
  so anyone who has been at a shooting range needs to be raided by a SWAT team when arrested for white-collar crimes?
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    The thing about a heavily armed society is that it necessitates law enforcement preparing for armed resistance in routine tasks as a default rather than exceptional case, if nothing else to reduce the probability of such resistance by reducing the expectation of it being successful. You can't reasonably both have a pervasively armed populace and law enforcement unprepared to deal with armed resistance from suspects even when the crime of which they are suspected is not itself violent.
    - Joakal 8y ago
      This is a different one: > As a “Lawman” crew filmed the raid Monday, deputies serving a search warrant blew out the suspect’s windows and leveled his gate, frightening neighbors. Jesus Llovera, who was convicted last year of attending a cockfight but has no record of owning weapons, was arrested on charges of suspected cockfighting, Phoenix TV station KPHO reported. He was unarmed. > Steven Seagal, Arizona Sheriff Use Tank to Bust Up Cockfighting for A&E Show (Update) https://www.thewrap.com/steven-seagal-arizona-sheriff-use-tank-bust-cockfighting-ae-show-update-25794/ https://www.thewrap.com/steven-seagal-arizona-sheriff-use-ta...
    - kyrieeschaton 8y ago
      SWAT raids are a terrible way to get the drop on anyone who is actually intending on armed resistance. They are on the other hand an excellent way to make sure that "accidents" happen, as they routinely do. They are an obvious terror tactic.
- drak0n1c 8y ago
  Possessing a firearm and handling it responsibly should not be justification for a massive pre-dawn raid. Especially when the target has no violent record, worked at and later cooperated with multiple federal agencies, and was a regular guest of the White House for decades without incident. There was no evidence that the officers making the arrest would be at inordinate risk.
  - VectorLock 8y ago
    If I was an FBI agent tasked with apprehending a suspect and I knew that the suspect had access to firearms and had "predicted" violent insurrection I would likely have taken the same precautions they did.
- kyrieeschaton 8y ago
  When you're approaching someone who is armed, it's generally considered unsafe to surprise them in such a way it's impossible for them to know who you are and threaten their life.
byset 8y ago
why is this downvoted? you can't say anything that might cast Roger Stone in a sympathetic light, even if it's true?
- IfOnlyYouKnew 8y ago
  It needlessly moves the discussion into partisan territory. Although, to be fair, it does not invoke the litany of conspiracy theories/fake outrage around that arrest, acknowledges that it is standard procedure, and explains the background. It would probably be better to explicitly mention that such police procedures are employed against thousands of non-violent people very year, that there is persistent racial bias in large parts of the judicial system, and that one should be so lucky to be protected from the worst by being a major figure of public interest and having camera teams present.
  - byset 8y ago
    It's a very well publicized example of the problem of federal agents unnecessarily using militarized police procedures. The commenter didn't say anything partisan about it. If others wet their pants at the mention of Roger Stone because OMG TRUMP, it's their fault.
  - byset 8y ago
    Oh I get it now, in order to be less "partisan", the comment should include political commentary that you agree with
  - ryanlol 8y ago
    How on earth is that partisan territory? That’s some seriously fucked thinking.
vkou 8y ago
This is a natural consequence of policing in a heavily armed country.
neuronexmachina 8y ago
In fairness, Stone also threatened a witness with violence: https://www.lawfareblog.com/roger-stones-arrest-was-appropriate-not-heavy-handed https://www.lawfareblog.com/roger-stones-arrest-was-appropri...

VectorLock 8y ago

Roger Stone had posted multiple videos of him at a shooting range so its reasonable for them to assume he was in the possession of firearms.

byset 8y ago
so anyone who has been at a shooting range needs to be raided by a SWAT team when arrested for white-collar crimes?
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  The thing about a heavily armed society is that it necessitates law enforcement preparing for armed resistance in routine tasks as a default rather than exceptional case, if nothing else to reduce the probability of such resistance by reducing the expectation of it being successful. You can't reasonably both have a pervasively armed populace and law enforcement unprepared to deal with armed resistance from suspects even when the crime of which they are suspected is not itself violent.
  - Joakal 8y ago
    This is a different one: > As a “Lawman” crew filmed the raid Monday, deputies serving a search warrant blew out the suspect’s windows and leveled his gate, frightening neighbors. Jesus Llovera, who was convicted last year of attending a cockfight but has no record of owning weapons, was arrested on charges of suspected cockfighting, Phoenix TV station KPHO reported. He was unarmed. > Steven Seagal, Arizona Sheriff Use Tank to Bust Up Cockfighting for A&E Show (Update) https://www.thewrap.com/steven-seagal-arizona-sheriff-use-tank-bust-cockfighting-ae-show-update-25794/ https://www.thewrap.com/steven-seagal-arizona-sheriff-use-ta...
  - kyrieeschaton 8y ago
    SWAT raids are a terrible way to get the drop on anyone who is actually intending on armed resistance. They are on the other hand an excellent way to make sure that "accidents" happen, as they routinely do. They are an obvious terror tactic.
drak0n1c 8y ago
Possessing a firearm and handling it responsibly should not be justification for a massive pre-dawn raid. Especially when the target has no violent record, worked at and later cooperated with multiple federal agencies, and was a regular guest of the White House for decades without incident. There was no evidence that the officers making the arrest would be at inordinate risk.
- VectorLock 8y ago
  If I was an FBI agent tasked with apprehending a suspect and I knew that the suspect had access to firearms and had "predicted" violent insurrection I would likely have taken the same precautions they did.
kyrieeschaton 8y ago
When you're approaching someone who is armed, it's generally considered unsafe to surprise them in such a way it's impossible for them to know who you are and threaten their life.

byset 8y ago

why is this downvoted? you can't say anything that might cast Roger Stone in a sympathetic light, even if it's true?

IfOnlyYouKnew 8y ago
It needlessly moves the discussion into partisan territory. Although, to be fair, it does not invoke the litany of conspiracy theories/fake outrage around that arrest, acknowledges that it is standard procedure, and explains the background. It would probably be better to explicitly mention that such police procedures are employed against thousands of non-violent people very year, that there is persistent racial bias in large parts of the judicial system, and that one should be so lucky to be protected from the worst by being a major figure of public interest and having camera teams present.
- byset 8y ago
  It's a very well publicized example of the problem of federal agents unnecessarily using militarized police procedures. The commenter didn't say anything partisan about it. If others wet their pants at the mention of Roger Stone because OMG TRUMP, it's their fault.
- byset 8y ago
  Oh I get it now, in order to be less "partisan", the comment should include political commentary that you agree with
- ryanlol 8y ago
  How on earth is that partisan territory? That’s some seriously fucked thinking.

vkou 8y ago

This is a natural consequence of policing in a heavily armed country.

neuronexmachina 8y ago

In fairness, Stone also threatened a witness with violence: https://www.lawfareblog.com/roger-stones-arrest-was-appropriate-not-heavy-handed https://www.lawfareblog.com/roger-stones-arrest-was-appropri...