8 ms·

> Western democracies have now overly partisan political system where most of the effort is spent in just cancelling out each other. it is true that without d

> Western democracies have now overly partisan political system where most of the effort is spent in just cancelling out each other. it is true that without democracy, governments can make a lot more changes a lot more quickly and easily. I prefer the government have to work hard to achieve the will of the people

TaylorAlexander 8y ago
Who says we have democracy in the west? The votes of USA’s congress often wildly deviate from public opinion and it seems hard to get anything done without lobbying dollars.
- cr0sh 8y ago
  I wonder if we're all blinding heading into another "taxation without representation" debacle (aka revolution)? I mean, yeah - we technically have "representation" - but you'd have to be blind and willfully ignorant to believe that's really the truth. Unless "we" is a corporation or business interest, of course. Somehow, these fictional things have got more voice than actual people with voices. At some point in the future, if GAI actually occurs, they will have real voices - and then what? Right now, the claim is "but they are composed of people" - but in reality, even that is a fiction; the majority of the people in most businesses - even small businesses - have no real say in anything about the business or how it operates, or it's politics (or political leanings). People can threaten or actually "walk out" or whatnot, but if the business is large enough, they'll just find themselves out of work and replaced (probably not entirely legal, but the actual litigation of it after the fact can be dragged out for years). So again - just another fiction we tell ourselves for some reason. I'm not sure why we lie to ourselves so much about these things; probably because most people have no stomach for what real change would entail; the sacrifice, the blood, the pain - real pain. Terrible pain. But...if something isn't done...it's going to happen anyway. It always does, as anyone familiar with history knows.
  - rexpop 8y ago
    > Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    > Right now, the claim is "but they are composed of people" - but in reality, even that is a fiction The claim is that they are owned by people, and therefore represent their speech, not the employees'.
- rayiner 8y ago
  Polls of registered voters consistently show that a staggering majority believe that their own Congressperson deserves to be reelected: https://news.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx. We're kind of in uncharted waters during the Trump Era, but in many years we're talking about a 2:1 or even 3:1 polling margin in support of the incumbent Congressperson. By similar margins, people say they're own Congressman is not corrupt. Saying that Congressional voting doesn't track public opinion and therefore the US isn't democratic is suspect for two reasons. First, it ignores the fact that the subjects of opinion polls are different than voters. Votes track older, more conservative, wealthier, and more rural than the public overall. Second, it ignores the fact that people don't vote for policies, they vote for leaders. People trust their leaders to make the right decisions, and consistently reward them for those decisions by reelecting them, even when those decisions don't necessarily map onto opinion polls.
- mc32 8y ago
  Do you mean the Congress doesn’t submit to populism? They generally follow the guidelines laid out by the constitution. Maybe you mean some are subsumed by special interests.
crimsonalucard 8y ago
Democracy is the will of the mob. "I think he knows what Rome is. Rome is the mob. Conjure magic for them and they'll be distracted. Take away their freedom and still they'll roar. The beating heart of Rome is not the marble of the senate, it's the sand of the coliseum. He'll bring them death - and they will love him for it."
- icebraining 8y ago
  -- David Franzoni, screenwriter
JudgeWapner 8y ago
> to work hard to achieve the will of the people where do corporations fit into that ?
- rayiner 8y ago
  The idea that there's a dichotomy between "the people" and "corporations" is specious. Almost everyone is employed at a corporation. People buy food, clothes, entertainment, etc., from corporations. A vote for corporations is a vote for things "the people" need or enjoy--iPhones, movies, cars, lifesaving drugs, etc.
  - bdamm 8y ago
    Careful. Corporations operate to fulfill their mandate to shareholders, which is to make a profit. Employees, suppliers, real estate, customers, even executives are just mechanisms to achieve that end goal. There's no real sense of justice beyond not getting shut down. People, on the other hand, live in the real world, and need protection from forces that wish to obliterate what they need to seek happiness. This is the primary function of government, ideally, to create the markets within which corporations and people can get along and operate to their goals with relative safety. Yes, we need corporations. But we are not corporations.
    - rayiner 8y ago
      > There's no real sense of justice beyond not getting shut down. Corporations have no greater or lesser sense of justice than people, because corporations are just groups of people acting in concert. (A fact that I'm reminded of every time I see a long line of cars with a single occupant in the HOV lane.)
      - bdamm 8y ago
        Groups of people behave differently than individuals. Corporations are constructed with the entire purpose of something that an individual wouldn't or couldn't do. It is the job of a board member to ensure that. A person in a company making a moral decision involving the company's behavior isn't acting from a sense of personal morality because it isn't happening to them. The consequences aren't generally on them, other than losing their job. Yes, companies can be amoral, but not for the same reasons that people can be amoral.

TaylorAlexander 8y ago

Who says we have democracy in the west? The votes of USA’s congress often wildly deviate from public opinion and it seems hard to get anything done without lobbying dollars.

cr0sh 8y ago
I wonder if we're all blinding heading into another "taxation without representation" debacle (aka revolution)? I mean, yeah - we technically have "representation" - but you'd have to be blind and willfully ignorant to believe that's really the truth. Unless "we" is a corporation or business interest, of course. Somehow, these fictional things have got more voice than actual people with voices. At some point in the future, if GAI actually occurs, they will have real voices - and then what? Right now, the claim is "but they are composed of people" - but in reality, even that is a fiction; the majority of the people in most businesses - even small businesses - have no real say in anything about the business or how it operates, or it's politics (or political leanings). People can threaten or actually "walk out" or whatnot, but if the business is large enough, they'll just find themselves out of work and replaced (probably not entirely legal, but the actual litigation of it after the fact can be dragged out for years). So again - just another fiction we tell ourselves for some reason. I'm not sure why we lie to ourselves so much about these things; probably because most people have no stomach for what real change would entail; the sacrifice, the blood, the pain - real pain. Terrible pain. But...if something isn't done...it's going to happen anyway. It always does, as anyone familiar with history knows.
- rexpop 8y ago
  > Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
- icebraining 8y ago
  > Right now, the claim is "but they are composed of people" - but in reality, even that is a fiction The claim is that they are owned by people, and therefore represent their speech, not the employees'.
rayiner 8y ago
Polls of registered voters consistently show that a staggering majority believe that their own Congressperson deserves to be reelected: https://news.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx. We're kind of in uncharted waters during the Trump Era, but in many years we're talking about a 2:1 or even 3:1 polling margin in support of the incumbent Congressperson. By similar margins, people say they're own Congressman is not corrupt. Saying that Congressional voting doesn't track public opinion and therefore the US isn't democratic is suspect for two reasons. First, it ignores the fact that the subjects of opinion polls are different than voters. Votes track older, more conservative, wealthier, and more rural than the public overall. Second, it ignores the fact that people don't vote for policies, they vote for leaders. People trust their leaders to make the right decisions, and consistently reward them for those decisions by reelecting them, even when those decisions don't necessarily map onto opinion polls.
mc32 8y ago
Do you mean the Congress doesn’t submit to populism? They generally follow the guidelines laid out by the constitution. Maybe you mean some are subsumed by special interests.

crimsonalucard 8y ago

Democracy is the will of the mob. "I think he knows what Rome is. Rome is the mob. Conjure magic for them and they'll be distracted. Take away their freedom and still they'll roar. The beating heart of Rome is not the marble of the senate, it's the sand of the coliseum. He'll bring them death - and they will love him for it."

icebraining 8y ago
-- David Franzoni, screenwriter

JudgeWapner 8y ago

> to work hard to achieve the will of the people where do corporations fit into that ?

rayiner 8y ago
The idea that there's a dichotomy between "the people" and "corporations" is specious. Almost everyone is employed at a corporation. People buy food, clothes, entertainment, etc., from corporations. A vote for corporations is a vote for things "the people" need or enjoy--iPhones, movies, cars, lifesaving drugs, etc.
- bdamm 8y ago
  Careful. Corporations operate to fulfill their mandate to shareholders, which is to make a profit. Employees, suppliers, real estate, customers, even executives are just mechanisms to achieve that end goal. There's no real sense of justice beyond not getting shut down. People, on the other hand, live in the real world, and need protection from forces that wish to obliterate what they need to seek happiness. This is the primary function of government, ideally, to create the markets within which corporations and people can get along and operate to their goals with relative safety. Yes, we need corporations. But we are not corporations.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    > There's no real sense of justice beyond not getting shut down. Corporations have no greater or lesser sense of justice than people, because corporations are just groups of people acting in concert. (A fact that I'm reminded of every time I see a long line of cars with a single occupant in the HOV lane.)
    - bdamm 8y ago
      Groups of people behave differently than individuals. Corporations are constructed with the entire purpose of something that an individual wouldn't or couldn't do. It is the job of a board member to ensure that. A person in a company making a moral decision involving the company's behavior isn't acting from a sense of personal morality because it isn't happening to them. The consequences aren't generally on them, other than losing their job. Yes, companies can be amoral, but not for the same reasons that people can be amoral.