6 ms·

I am looking forward to the Librem 5. I am concerned about the philosophy of "avoiding preferences" since deep control and customization of phone and applicati

by bhauer 7y ago

I am looking forward to the Librem 5. I am concerned about the philosophy of "avoiding preferences" since deep control and customization of phone and application behavior is one of the draws of something like the Librem 5. I would be comfortable with that philosophy as long as it's coupled with something along the lines of the Windows Registry, where it is common to find many preferences and configuration options that were simply not exposed in an application's user interface. But reducing the ability of users to adapt software to their needs without some countermeasure is chilling my interest a bit.

ocdtrekkie 7y ago
I do feel like there's a certain risk to pushing that point, given that most of the people who want to jump on something like a Linux phone are probably nerds who want to dive deep into pools of settings. But I also think they've got to be careful to avoid having apps that literally require you go in and manage a conf file on a phone. I am generally pretty fond of having a lot of settings, but I think you have to sort out why you have them. Is it for personal preference (dark mode/light mode) or is it something you should be able to detect and automate and not ask for?
- swiley 7y ago
  >But I also think they've got to be careful to avoid having apps that literally require you go in and manage a conf file on a phone. Then they should go get an iphone! 100% of the appeal for this phone is that you'll be able to run GNU/X11 on it. (there's privacy stuff too but that's a result of the openness) I already have conf files for most of the apps and use them on handhelds too.
  - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
    This is a bad opinion. :) We do not want people using iPhones if better options become available. For open to succeed, open has to still be appealing to the masses. The more people who embrace a true Linux platform, the more options you will have to buy phones running true Linux platforms. Aka, it is in your best interest to recognize you are an extremely uncommon user and that you benefit if more common users can use the product. Even as a fairly technical user who likes to have a lot of settings and options, I do not ever want to have to pop open a text editor on my phone to fix an app. I'm fine with it being possible to do so, but I had better never have to do it. Arguably, since the hardware should support you running whatever flavor of hackery you want, you should support the phone having apps designed with the average user in mind, knowing full well you are capable of customizing it to your liking anyways.
  - rchaud 7y ago
    > 100% of the appeal for this phone is that you'll be able to run GNU/X11 on it. That's 100% of the appeal to you, and there aren't enough of you to make Librem sustainable. I say this as someone who was a big fan of what the Nokia N900 and Moko Phone were trying to achieve. Me, I'm looking for a phone that lets me live outside the Google/Apple ecosystem without reducing my choices to 720p screens and 1GB RAM. I installed Ubuntu on my laptop a few years ago out of curiosity and it was absurd how much configuration everything needed. Needing to open up a package manager to get something as simple as an MP3 Player app is not the UX you want your customers to have.
    - kowbell 7y ago
      Definitely agree that configuration should be optional, not practically required. That's not just an annoyance to most people, it's a reason to avoid using something altogether. > Needing to open up a package manager to get something as simple as an MP3 Player app is not the UX you want your customers to have. This doesn't sound like a config issue though, that's more that the choices of preloaded packages could be better. A package manager isn't much different from an app store (assuming you meant one of the GUIs.) Just curious because it's been a while, what were some things you had to configure? And were you configuring to get it feeling more like OS X/Windows, or to have software that's usable at all?
  - moosingin3space 7y ago
    > 100% of the appeal for this phone is that you'll be able to run GNU/X11 on it. I just got rid of X11 from all my desktop PCs, no way in hell I'm using that pile of shit on a phone. Also, it appeals to be because it's a phone that will support mainline Linux, NXP has been willing to support their products for longer terms than Qualcomm, puts the user firmly in the drivers' seat, and is being designed for eventual mainstream appeal.
    - swiley 7y ago
      I’d get rid of X11 if there were something better. But the only alternative that I know of means gigabytes of crap from projects like gnome or kde and provides less functionality.
swiley 7y ago
When I get one I'm putting alpine and X11 with xvkbd and fvwm on it just like my laptop (sans xvkbd.) I don't want or care about some special phone OS (especially if the UI is built with the same philosophy that built gnome.) I care that the hardware has drivers but that's it.
y0ghur7_xxx 7y ago
I agree about the settings. I really hope the plasma mobile guys get something ready for when the phone starts to ship.
neilsimp1 7y ago
I have to imagine that a lot of the apps would have a dotfile or some plaintext configs somewhere seen as how it's all just Linux. At least I would hope so.
zrm 7y ago
Ubuntu has been getting this right for a while now. You can install it by basically booting the install media and clicking "next" a bunch of times, then it gives you an interface with icons for Firefox and LibreOffice that someone who has never used it before could easily figure out. You could use it for ten years without having to know that the terminal is even there, but it is, along with /etc and OpenSSH and everything else Unix-like systems have had for decades. Because you don't need brutish uniformity. Some people like to download things with Firefox and some people like to download things with curl and there is no reason they can't both exist on the same system.

by bhauer 7y ago

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

I do feel like there's a certain risk to pushing that point, given that most of the people who want to jump on something like a Linux phone are probably nerds who want to dive deep into pools of settings. But I also think they've got to be careful to avoid having apps that literally require you go in and manage a conf file on a phone. I am generally pretty fond of having a lot of settings, but I think you have to sort out why you have them. Is it for personal preference (dark mode/light mode) or is it something you should be able to detect and automate and not ask for?

swiley 7y ago
>But I also think they've got to be careful to avoid having apps that literally require you go in and manage a conf file on a phone. Then they should go get an iphone! 100% of the appeal for this phone is that you'll be able to run GNU/X11 on it. (there's privacy stuff too but that's a result of the openness) I already have conf files for most of the apps and use them on handhelds too.
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  This is a bad opinion. :) We do not want people using iPhones if better options become available. For open to succeed, open has to still be appealing to the masses. The more people who embrace a true Linux platform, the more options you will have to buy phones running true Linux platforms. Aka, it is in your best interest to recognize you are an extremely uncommon user and that you benefit if more common users can use the product. Even as a fairly technical user who likes to have a lot of settings and options, I do not ever want to have to pop open a text editor on my phone to fix an app. I'm fine with it being possible to do so, but I had better never have to do it. Arguably, since the hardware should support you running whatever flavor of hackery you want, you should support the phone having apps designed with the average user in mind, knowing full well you are capable of customizing it to your liking anyways.
- rchaud 7y ago
  > 100% of the appeal for this phone is that you'll be able to run GNU/X11 on it. That's 100% of the appeal to you, and there aren't enough of you to make Librem sustainable. I say this as someone who was a big fan of what the Nokia N900 and Moko Phone were trying to achieve. Me, I'm looking for a phone that lets me live outside the Google/Apple ecosystem without reducing my choices to 720p screens and 1GB RAM. I installed Ubuntu on my laptop a few years ago out of curiosity and it was absurd how much configuration everything needed. Needing to open up a package manager to get something as simple as an MP3 Player app is not the UX you want your customers to have.
  - kowbell 7y ago
    Definitely agree that configuration should be optional, not practically required. That's not just an annoyance to most people, it's a reason to avoid using something altogether. > Needing to open up a package manager to get something as simple as an MP3 Player app is not the UX you want your customers to have. This doesn't sound like a config issue though, that's more that the choices of preloaded packages could be better. A package manager isn't much different from an app store (assuming you meant one of the GUIs.) Just curious because it's been a while, what were some things you had to configure? And were you configuring to get it feeling more like OS X/Windows, or to have software that's usable at all?
- moosingin3space 7y ago
  > 100% of the appeal for this phone is that you'll be able to run GNU/X11 on it. I just got rid of X11 from all my desktop PCs, no way in hell I'm using that pile of shit on a phone. Also, it appeals to be because it's a phone that will support mainline Linux, NXP has been willing to support their products for longer terms than Qualcomm, puts the user firmly in the drivers' seat, and is being designed for eventual mainstream appeal.
  - swiley 7y ago
    I’d get rid of X11 if there were something better. But the only alternative that I know of means gigabytes of crap from projects like gnome or kde and provides less functionality.

swiley 7y ago

When I get one I'm putting alpine and X11 with xvkbd and fvwm on it just like my laptop (sans xvkbd.) I don't want or care about some special phone OS (especially if the UI is built with the same philosophy that built gnome.) I care that the hardware has drivers but that's it.

y0ghur7_xxx 7y ago

I agree about the settings. I really hope the plasma mobile guys get something ready for when the phone starts to ship.

neilsimp1 7y ago

I have to imagine that a lot of the apps would have a dotfile or some plaintext configs somewhere seen as how it's all just Linux. At least I would hope so.

zrm 7y ago

Ubuntu has been getting this right for a while now. You can install it by basically booting the install media and clicking "next" a bunch of times, then it gives you an interface with icons for Firefox and LibreOffice that someone who has never used it before could easily figure out. You could use it for ten years without having to know that the terminal is even there, but it is, along with /etc and OpenSSH and everything else Unix-like systems have had for decades. Because you don't need brutish uniformity. Some people like to download things with Firefox and some people like to download things with curl and there is no reason they can't both exist on the same system.