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> Except, sleep isn't a debt because the loss can't be repaid. sort of? The impact of missed sleep has a half life. A single night of 4 hours sleep, followed

> Except, sleep isn't a debt because the loss can't be repaid. sort of? The impact of missed sleep has a half life. A single night of 4 hours sleep, followed by a year of normal nights sleep will lead to a me that is indistinguishable from the me that slept 8 hours that same night. I'm all for sleeping properly, but lets not suggest that it is the end of the world any time someone doesn't get their standard n hours

heymijo 8y ago
Sure. And please note, I'm not prescribing or suggesting anything about the end of the world regarding a single missed night of sleep. I am commenting about the world of ignorance I had regarding sleep prior to a very recent education. If you or other people reading this are unaware of the depth of what sleep research has learned in the past 15 or so years I will point you to this six hour conversation that Dr. Matthew Walker had with Peter Attia on his podcast. Part 1 https://podcastnotes.org/2019/04/02/sleep-4/ https://podcastnotes.org/2019/04/02/sleep-4/ Part 2 https://podcastnotes.org/2019/04/17/sleep-5/ https://podcastnotes.org/2019/04/17/sleep-5/ Part 3 https://podcastnotes.org/2019/04/18/sleep-6/ https://podcastnotes.org/2019/04/18/sleep-6/
- illirik 8y ago
  I don't want to be dismissive, but is there a good TLDR on this, preferably in written form, or any other resources you'd recommend? I'd love to catch up on the science, but listening to six hours of podcast might cut into my sleep!
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    You could read Walker’s 2017 book, Why We Sleep, https://amzn.com/1501144316 https://amzn.com/1501144316 https://www.sleepdiplomat.com/author https://www.sleepdiplomat.com/author He’s the director of UC Berkeley’s Center for Human Sleep Science, so you could also look up his lab’s scholarly publications https://www.humansleepscience.com/p-u-b-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n-s https://www.humansleepscience.com/p-u-b-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n-s
    - rainonmoon 8y ago
      I'm not sure an entire book would constitute a "too long; didn't read".
      - Swenrekcah 8y ago
        Unless the original text is the whole body of sleep research. In that case a popsci book is a nice TLDR.
      - maxerickson 8y ago
        A book is considerably more browsable than a 6 hour audio recording.
  - heymijo 8y ago
    The links I posted above are to an outline of notes someone took for the 6 hours of podcasts. Not quite a tl;dr but a very skimmable outline nonetheless!
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - theNJR 8y ago
    Listen at 2x. Bam, 3 hours instead of 6. That’s a few commutes, work outs, or some other daily task that can be filled with audio. And it’s very easy listening.
  - kolleykibber 8y ago
    Here's my attempt after just finishing the book, after 4 hours sleep. Sleep is much more important than anybody ever imagined and sufficient sleep is the cure to a large percentage of western societies problems. There are few financial incentives in promoting sleep so we do not hear about this over drugs, caffeine etc. REM sleep is the source of creativity and thought resolution where different parts of the brain communicate that do not usually. Rem sleep occurs in the last two hours of an 8 hour sleep. Non rem sleep is where the brain clears itself of the byproducts of brain activity. Without this the brain becomes damaged and is probably the cause of dementia. Sleeping pills, LCDs, artificial light, caffeine, alarm clocks, early school starts and alcohol are all very bad. Sleep in a dark room at 18 degrees celsius for 8 hours, allowing 1 hour to fall asleep.
    - stevedt 8y ago
      > Rem sleep occurs in the last two hours of an 8 hour sleep. Slight quibble: the fraction of REM sleep in each sleep cycle is highest during the last sleep cycle of the night.
TuringNYC 8y ago
>> A single night of 4 hours sleep, followed by a year of normal nights sleep will lead to a me that is indistinguishable from the me that slept 8 hours that same night. Usually. Except if the 4 hours of sleep leads you to crash your car, or run into a pedestrian, or forget your child in a car. In the usual case, a day of missed sleep is normally OK, but when you are responsible for other people (rather than just code quality/productivity), why risk it? And even in the general case...why risk it? It is far better to lead a normal lifestyle and be at peak performance in all parts of your responsibility.
- dllthomas 8y ago
  But that's just as true with credit card debt, right? If I couldn't make an important purchase because I hit my limit, my life might be radically different - is it therefore "not debt"?
- vageli 8y ago
  > Usually. Except if the 4 hours of sleep leads you to crash your car, or run into a pedestrian, or forget your child in a car. > In the usual case, a day of missed sleep is normally OK, but when you are responsible for other people (rather than just code quality/productivity), why risk it? And even in the general case...why risk it? It is far better to lead a normal lifestyle and be at peak performance in all parts of your responsibility. I'm sure most people with responsibilities getting less than their required sleep are not doing it by choice. When I have had to forgo sleep it was out of necessity (primarily to work a second job). Of course it is far better to get the optimal sleep your body needs. It's not about people intentionally engaging in risky behavior needlessly—oftentimes people are trading sleep for putting food on the table, for instance.
  - Starwatcher2001 8y ago
    I quite agree with the problem of having to trade sleep for other necessities, but personally I didn't realise the actual cost of that trade, and the serious long term effects that 90+ hour weeks might have on me. In my case it wasn't a second job, it was trying to be more productive to help a fledgling company fly. In retrospect I'd have been a lot more productive with a good 8 hours sleep in my tank every night. Walker's book on sleep opened my eyes that much that I bought copies for all the family. I've never done that before.
pvelagal 8y ago
Try the same logic : 4 hours sleep for a week/2 weeks and see if your statement is still valid.
civility 8y ago
> A single night of 4 hours sleep, followed by a year of normal nights sleep will lead to a me that is indistinguishable from the me that slept 8 hours that same night. [...] I'm all for sleeping properly, but lets not suggest that it is the end of the world any time someone doesn't get their standard n hours I think of it kind of like burning yourself on a flame. Yes, a second degree burn will heal, and in a year you won't notice it, but if you do it over and over, or really burn yourself, you'll scar or kill nerves and never fully recover. You do actual damage to your brain when you don't sleep enough, and it will effect your memory and cognition permanently if you do it too much.
- Ntrails 8y ago
  That is actually an analogy i am pretty happy with. We can argue about the actual severity, but in principle it feels consistent. (Conveniently working in kitchens has given me a lot of experience of regular small burns xD)
not_a_moth 8y ago
You should preface your statement with an n = 1. After a week or two of great sleep, I will feel the effects of even a single night at 6-7 hours. My blood glucose tracking makes this clear (it's going to be north of 100 in fasted state), and if the required work for the day is cognitively challenging, ie. "deep work", it will be distraction city.

heymijo 8y ago

Sure. And please note, I'm not prescribing or suggesting anything about the end of the world regarding a single missed night of sleep. I am commenting about the world of ignorance I had regarding sleep prior to a very recent education. If you or other people reading this are unaware of the depth of what sleep research has learned in the past 15 or so years I will point you to this six hour conversation that Dr. Matthew Walker had with Peter Attia on his podcast. Part 1 https://podcastnotes.org/2019/04/02/sleep-4/ https://podcastnotes.org/2019/04/02/sleep-4/ Part 2 https://podcastnotes.org/2019/04/17/sleep-5/ https://podcastnotes.org/2019/04/17/sleep-5/ Part 3 https://podcastnotes.org/2019/04/18/sleep-6/ https://podcastnotes.org/2019/04/18/sleep-6/

illirik 8y ago
I don't want to be dismissive, but is there a good TLDR on this, preferably in written form, or any other resources you'd recommend? I'd love to catch up on the science, but listening to six hours of podcast might cut into my sleep!
- jacobolus 8y ago
  You could read Walker’s 2017 book, Why We Sleep, https://amzn.com/1501144316 https://amzn.com/1501144316 https://www.sleepdiplomat.com/author https://www.sleepdiplomat.com/author He’s the director of UC Berkeley’s Center for Human Sleep Science, so you could also look up his lab’s scholarly publications https://www.humansleepscience.com/p-u-b-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n-s https://www.humansleepscience.com/p-u-b-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n-s
  - rainonmoon 8y ago
    I'm not sure an entire book would constitute a "too long; didn't read".
    - Swenrekcah 8y ago
      Unless the original text is the whole body of sleep research. In that case a popsci book is a nice TLDR.
    - maxerickson 8y ago
      A book is considerably more browsable than a 6 hour audio recording.
- heymijo 8y ago
  The links I posted above are to an outline of notes someone took for the 6 hours of podcasts. Not quite a tl;dr but a very skimmable outline nonetheless!
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- theNJR 8y ago
  Listen at 2x. Bam, 3 hours instead of 6. That’s a few commutes, work outs, or some other daily task that can be filled with audio. And it’s very easy listening.
- kolleykibber 8y ago
  Here's my attempt after just finishing the book, after 4 hours sleep. Sleep is much more important than anybody ever imagined and sufficient sleep is the cure to a large percentage of western societies problems. There are few financial incentives in promoting sleep so we do not hear about this over drugs, caffeine etc. REM sleep is the source of creativity and thought resolution where different parts of the brain communicate that do not usually. Rem sleep occurs in the last two hours of an 8 hour sleep. Non rem sleep is where the brain clears itself of the byproducts of brain activity. Without this the brain becomes damaged and is probably the cause of dementia. Sleeping pills, LCDs, artificial light, caffeine, alarm clocks, early school starts and alcohol are all very bad. Sleep in a dark room at 18 degrees celsius for 8 hours, allowing 1 hour to fall asleep.
  - stevedt 8y ago
    > Rem sleep occurs in the last two hours of an 8 hour sleep. Slight quibble: the fraction of REM sleep in each sleep cycle is highest during the last sleep cycle of the night.

TuringNYC 8y ago

>> A single night of 4 hours sleep, followed by a year of normal nights sleep will lead to a me that is indistinguishable from the me that slept 8 hours that same night. Usually. Except if the 4 hours of sleep leads you to crash your car, or run into a pedestrian, or forget your child in a car. In the usual case, a day of missed sleep is normally OK, but when you are responsible for other people (rather than just code quality/productivity), why risk it? And even in the general case...why risk it? It is far better to lead a normal lifestyle and be at peak performance in all parts of your responsibility.

dllthomas 8y ago
But that's just as true with credit card debt, right? If I couldn't make an important purchase because I hit my limit, my life might be radically different - is it therefore "not debt"?
vageli 8y ago
> Usually. Except if the 4 hours of sleep leads you to crash your car, or run into a pedestrian, or forget your child in a car. > In the usual case, a day of missed sleep is normally OK, but when you are responsible for other people (rather than just code quality/productivity), why risk it? And even in the general case...why risk it? It is far better to lead a normal lifestyle and be at peak performance in all parts of your responsibility. I'm sure most people with responsibilities getting less than their required sleep are not doing it by choice. When I have had to forgo sleep it was out of necessity (primarily to work a second job). Of course it is far better to get the optimal sleep your body needs. It's not about people intentionally engaging in risky behavior needlessly—oftentimes people are trading sleep for putting food on the table, for instance.
- Starwatcher2001 8y ago
  I quite agree with the problem of having to trade sleep for other necessities, but personally I didn't realise the actual cost of that trade, and the serious long term effects that 90+ hour weeks might have on me. In my case it wasn't a second job, it was trying to be more productive to help a fledgling company fly. In retrospect I'd have been a lot more productive with a good 8 hours sleep in my tank every night. Walker's book on sleep opened my eyes that much that I bought copies for all the family. I've never done that before.

pvelagal 8y ago

Try the same logic : 4 hours sleep for a week/2 weeks and see if your statement is still valid.

civility 8y ago

> A single night of 4 hours sleep, followed by a year of normal nights sleep will lead to a me that is indistinguishable from the me that slept 8 hours that same night. [...] I'm all for sleeping properly, but lets not suggest that it is the end of the world any time someone doesn't get their standard n hours I think of it kind of like burning yourself on a flame. Yes, a second degree burn will heal, and in a year you won't notice it, but if you do it over and over, or really burn yourself, you'll scar or kill nerves and never fully recover. You do actual damage to your brain when you don't sleep enough, and it will effect your memory and cognition permanently if you do it too much.

Ntrails 8y ago
That is actually an analogy i am pretty happy with. We can argue about the actual severity, but in principle it feels consistent. (Conveniently working in kitchens has given me a lot of experience of regular small burns xD)

not_a_moth 8y ago

You should preface your statement with an n = 1. After a week or two of great sleep, I will feel the effects of even a single night at 6-7 hours. My blood glucose tracking makes this clear (it's going to be north of 100 in fasted state), and if the required work for the day is cognitively challenging, ie. "deep work", it will be distraction city.