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Ancient ideas: “No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training…what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the

Ancient ideas: “No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training…what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.” - Socrates “In order for man to succeed in life, God provided him with two means, education and physical activity. Not separately, one for the soul and the other for the body, but for the two together. With these two means, man can attain perfection.” - Plato

qntty 7y ago
I don't mean to be a killjoy but both these quotes are obviously fake for anyone familiar with Plato. (The concept of god was not used like this in Ancient Greece and Socrates didn't talk like that.)
- deleted 7y ago
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- Jun8 7y ago
  Good discussion about the sourcing of that quote: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5hcclh/did_socrates_even_lift/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5hcclh/did_s..., it's from a Socratic dialogue by Xenophon in his Memorabilia. Here's one relevant quote from the Memorabilia: ὁρῶ γὰρ ὥσπερ τὰ τοῦ σώματος ἔργα τοὺς μὴ τὰ σώματα ἀσκοῦντας οὐ δυναμένους ποιεῖν, οὕτω καὶ τὰ τῆς ψυχῆς ἔργα τοὺς μὴ τὴν ψυχὴν ἀσκοῦντας οὐ δυναμένους. As those who do not train the body cannot perform the functions proper to the body, so those who do not train the soul cannot perform the functions of the soul. (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Memorabilia_(Xenophon) https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Memorabilia_(Xenophon))
- kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
  They're not fake, just mistranslated/corrupted. Mistranslated/corrupted: "No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training…what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable." Closest quote: "Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit." - Xen. Mem. 3.12 Mistranslated/corrupted: "In order for man to succeed in life, God provided him with two means, education and physical activity. Not separately, one for the soul and the other for the body, but for the two together. With these two means, man can attain perfection." Closest quote: "For these two, then, it seems there are two arts which I would say some god gave to mankind, music and gymnastics for the service of the high-spirited principle and the love of knowledge in them—not for the soul and the body except incidentally, but for the harmonious adjustment of these two principles." - Plat. Rep. 3.411e
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- will_brown 7y ago
  They didn’t speak English either...and yet Socrates qoute is attributable to his student Xenophon. Socrates was also a foot soldier/war hero who elected to continue to socialize and drink with famous athletes all his life. Plato’s quote I’m not so sure but there is no shortage of discussion of mind/body, exercise, movement in his works.
lm28469 7y ago
There is a difference between maintaining your body's strength andrunning after PRs at all cost (over feeding, spending hours in the gym, drugs, &c.). Stoics especially don't value "externals" that much, which includes the body. > For although the body needs many things in order to be strong, yet the mind grows from within, giving to itself nourishment and exercise. Yonder athletes must have copious food, copious drink, copious quantities of oil, and long training besides; but you can acquire virtue without equipment and without expense. All that goes to make you a good man lies within yourself. > Now there are short and simple exercises which tire the body rapidly, and so save our time; and time is something of which we ought to keep strict account. These exercises are running, brandishing weights, and jumping, – high-jumping or broad-jumping, or the kind which I may call, "the Priest's dance," or, in slighting terms, "the clothes-cleaner's jump." Select for practice any one of these, and you will find it plain and easy. But whatever you do, come back soon from body to mind. The mind must be exercised both day and night, for it is nourished by moderate labour. and this form of exercise need not be hampered by cold or hot weather, or even by old age. Cultivate that good which improves with the years. - Seneca
- DataWorker 7y ago
  Interesting. I always thought of dualism as a Cartesian thing.
bluedino 7y ago
For a more modern take, Henry Rollins: https://www.oldtimestrongman.com/articles/the-iron-by-henry-rollins/ https://www.oldtimestrongman.com/articles/the-iron-by-henry-...
basetop 7y ago
Before we proudly push for ancient ideas, lets not forget that these same greeks selfishly advocated for slavery so that they themselves didn't have to work and could pursue education and physical activity. Another ancient greek idea was forcing people to commit suicide via hemlock ( as what happened to socrates himself ). Another ancient greek idea was that women were incapable of being equal to men and being educated. Another ancient greek idea was a form of pedophilia. I'm for working out and educating oneself. But lets not cherrypick ancient quotes as use them as justification for anything. It's a form of appeal to authority. How about working out is good for your health and education is good for the mind. No need to appeal to the ancients. Appeal to facts instead.
- deleted 7y ago
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- atom-morgan 7y ago
  With this logic, we can never reference any wisdom from the past.
  - basetop 7y ago
    Justifying or defending something based on a quotes is recipe for contradictions and disaster. For every quote, you can find an equal and opposite quote. "Actions speak louder than words." vs "Pen is mightier than the sword." "Many hands make light work." vs "Too many cooks spoil the broth." It's like the bible, I can find a quote to justify pretty much anything. And then I can find a quote to denounce the same. I think it's silly to advocate for physical activity with a quote. I think it's better to defend physical activity because it keeps you healthy physically and even mentally. I used to be a big quote collector ( from benjamin franklin to the bible ). I'm not any longer.
    - graeme 7y ago
      Your general point is sound, but your quotes aren't contradictory. Actions vs words = talk vs doing something. Whereas the pen is the written word, which has great power especially over history. Many hands improve work, but how many hands do you need on a broth? Further, a cook is the one who directs, whereas hands have no such connotation.

qntty 7y ago

I don't mean to be a killjoy but both these quotes are obviously fake for anyone familiar with Plato. (The concept of god was not used like this in Ancient Greece and Socrates didn't talk like that.)

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Jun8 7y ago
Good discussion about the sourcing of that quote: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5hcclh/did_socrates_even_lift/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5hcclh/did_s..., it's from a Socratic dialogue by Xenophon in his Memorabilia. Here's one relevant quote from the Memorabilia: ὁρῶ γὰρ ὥσπερ τὰ τοῦ σώματος ἔργα τοὺς μὴ τὰ σώματα ἀσκοῦντας οὐ δυναμένους ποιεῖν, οὕτω καὶ τὰ τῆς ψυχῆς ἔργα τοὺς μὴ τὴν ψυχὴν ἀσκοῦντας οὐ δυναμένους. As those who do not train the body cannot perform the functions proper to the body, so those who do not train the soul cannot perform the functions of the soul. (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Memorabilia_(Xenophon) https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Memorabilia_(Xenophon))
kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
They're not fake, just mistranslated/corrupted. Mistranslated/corrupted: "No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training…what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable." Closest quote: "Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit." - Xen. Mem. 3.12 Mistranslated/corrupted: "In order for man to succeed in life, God provided him with two means, education and physical activity. Not separately, one for the soul and the other for the body, but for the two together. With these two means, man can attain perfection." Closest quote: "For these two, then, it seems there are two arts which I would say some god gave to mankind, music and gymnastics for the service of the high-spirited principle and the love of knowledge in them—not for the soul and the body except incidentally, but for the harmonious adjustment of these two principles." - Plat. Rep. 3.411e
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
will_brown 7y ago
They didn’t speak English either...and yet Socrates qoute is attributable to his student Xenophon. Socrates was also a foot soldier/war hero who elected to continue to socialize and drink with famous athletes all his life. Plato’s quote I’m not so sure but there is no shortage of discussion of mind/body, exercise, movement in his works.

lm28469 7y ago

There is a difference between maintaining your body's strength andrunning after PRs at all cost (over feeding, spending hours in the gym, drugs, &c.). Stoics especially don't value "externals" that much, which includes the body. > For although the body needs many things in order to be strong, yet the mind grows from within, giving to itself nourishment and exercise. Yonder athletes must have copious food, copious drink, copious quantities of oil, and long training besides; but you can acquire virtue without equipment and without expense. All that goes to make you a good man lies within yourself. > Now there are short and simple exercises which tire the body rapidly, and so save our time; and time is something of which we ought to keep strict account. These exercises are running, brandishing weights, and jumping, – high-jumping or broad-jumping, or the kind which I may call, "the Priest's dance," or, in slighting terms, "the clothes-cleaner's jump." Select for practice any one of these, and you will find it plain and easy. But whatever you do, come back soon from body to mind. The mind must be exercised both day and night, for it is nourished by moderate labour. and this form of exercise need not be hampered by cold or hot weather, or even by old age. Cultivate that good which improves with the years. - Seneca

DataWorker 7y ago
Interesting. I always thought of dualism as a Cartesian thing.

bluedino 7y ago

For a more modern take, Henry Rollins: https://www.oldtimestrongman.com/articles/the-iron-by-henry-rollins/ https://www.oldtimestrongman.com/articles/the-iron-by-henry-...

basetop 7y ago

Before we proudly push for ancient ideas, lets not forget that these same greeks selfishly advocated for slavery so that they themselves didn't have to work and could pursue education and physical activity. Another ancient greek idea was forcing people to commit suicide via hemlock ( as what happened to socrates himself ). Another ancient greek idea was that women were incapable of being equal to men and being educated. Another ancient greek idea was a form of pedophilia. I'm for working out and educating oneself. But lets not cherrypick ancient quotes as use them as justification for anything. It's a form of appeal to authority. How about working out is good for your health and education is good for the mind. No need to appeal to the ancients. Appeal to facts instead.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
atom-morgan 7y ago
With this logic, we can never reference any wisdom from the past.
- basetop 7y ago
  Justifying or defending something based on a quotes is recipe for contradictions and disaster. For every quote, you can find an equal and opposite quote. "Actions speak louder than words." vs "Pen is mightier than the sword." "Many hands make light work." vs "Too many cooks spoil the broth." It's like the bible, I can find a quote to justify pretty much anything. And then I can find a quote to denounce the same. I think it's silly to advocate for physical activity with a quote. I think it's better to defend physical activity because it keeps you healthy physically and even mentally. I used to be a big quote collector ( from benjamin franklin to the bible ). I'm not any longer.
  - graeme 7y ago
    Your general point is sound, but your quotes aren't contradictory. Actions vs words = talk vs doing something. Whereas the pen is the written word, which has great power especially over history. Many hands improve work, but how many hands do you need on a broth? Further, a cook is the one who directs, whereas hands have no such connotation.