2 ms·

> We don't want resumable exceptions for Java. So the Java libs I'd have to use would not support them. Not so great. > I have never used Allegro So the tota

by lispm 8y ago

> We don't want resumable exceptions for Java. So the Java libs I'd have to use would not support them. Not so great. > I have never used Allegro So the totality of your opinion of the JVM being better for Lisp comes from exactly what knowledge? Oracle marketing? > But it seems that most Lispers prefer what the JVM has to offer, which is high performance, low-latency GC, low-overhead monitoring, and a huge ecosystem. You mean Clojure users recruited from Java? I have never seen many Scheme, Common Lisp, Javascript, Julia, ... users on the JVM. > Python and Ruby are actually most performant on the JVM nowadays. Look up TruffleRuby and GraalPython. They're just very new. Even TruffleJS is almost as good as V8. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/performance/nbody.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... Really? Looks to me that it's not particular fast. [GraalVM CE, Java 1.8.0_202] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. Please note: This Python implementation is in the very early stages, and can run little more than basic benchmarks at this point. Haha, basic benchmarks, okay. Size '178939568' okay. Probably the largest Python implementation in the world...

pron 8y ago
> Not so great. Well, resumable exceptions are not so great... We really don't want them in Java (remember that Java is a language originally designed by Lispers). > So the totality of your opinion of the JVM being better for Lisp comes from exactly what knowledge? Oracle marketing? I've used Racket (and PLT Scheme before it) quite a bit (I was a Schemer when Java barely even existed), and Guile, and, of course, Clojure. Also, Oracle marketing is quite terrible. > You mean Clojure users recruited from Java? I have never seen many Scheme, Common Lisp, Javascript, Julia, ... users on the JVM. I started using Scheme in the mid-nineties. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many Scheme and Common Lisp users anywhere. Clojure is the first in over three decades to be used on any noticeable scale in industry. There are plenty of people that run JS on the JVM (probably ten times all non-Clojure Lispers), and Julia is still new. > Really? Looks to me that it's not particular fast. It's very fast. Here's some benchmarks with early prototypes: http://thezhangwei.com/documents/oopsla113-zhang.pdf http://thezhangwei.com/documents/oopsla113-zhang.pdf Beats PyPy.
- lispm 8y ago
  > Well, resumable exceptions are not so great... I thought they are? > We really don't want them in Java (remember that Java is a language originally designed by Lispers). Who of the Oak team were Lispers? Not even Gosling has ever seen or used a competent Lisp implementation - he wrote a 'Mock' Lisp without lists ;-) for an Emacs written in C on Unix. One of his many projects. Stallman later implemented a slightly better Lisp using Goslings C code as a start. > I've used Racket (and PLT Scheme before it) quite a bit (I was a Schemer when Java barely even existed), and Guile None of them have especially interesting runtimes. Racket now gets a new runtime based on Chez Scheme from Cisco. Chez Scheme is actually great. You should have studied that. Well, source code is now available from Cisco. It has a nice AOT native compiler. > I started using Scheme in the mid-nineties. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many Scheme and Common Lisp users anywhere You were too late. SUN had its own Lisp offerings in the 80s. Like DEC/DIGITAL, IBM, Apple, HP, Apollo, Texas Instruments, Xerox, ...
  - pron 8y ago
    Yes, I know Chez Scheme, and I know about the excitement around Lisp in the 80s, and now Clojure is giving Lisp a bit of a resurgence. I assure you that Lisp still has fans in the Java team today. I also know about various cool features in various runtimes -- we monitor the field closely and learn from everyone, but as those who've built the most successful programming runtime in the history of computing, which is also one of the most successful and capable Lisp runtimes in the history of computing, and also made not one but several breakthroughs in JIT compilation, garbage collection and low-overhead monitoring, the Java team knows a thing or two, as well, especially about which features have a big impact.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]

by lispm 8y ago

pron 8y ago

> Not so great. Well, resumable exceptions are not so great... We really don't want them in Java (remember that Java is a language originally designed by Lispers). > So the totality of your opinion of the JVM being better for Lisp comes from exactly what knowledge? Oracle marketing? I've used Racket (and PLT Scheme before it) quite a bit (I was a Schemer when Java barely even existed), and Guile, and, of course, Clojure. Also, Oracle marketing is quite terrible. > You mean Clojure users recruited from Java? I have never seen many Scheme, Common Lisp, Javascript, Julia, ... users on the JVM. I started using Scheme in the mid-nineties. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many Scheme and Common Lisp users anywhere. Clojure is the first in over three decades to be used on any noticeable scale in industry. There are plenty of people that run JS on the JVM (probably ten times all non-Clojure Lispers), and Julia is still new. > Really? Looks to me that it's not particular fast. It's very fast. Here's some benchmarks with early prototypes: http://thezhangwei.com/documents/oopsla113-zhang.pdf http://thezhangwei.com/documents/oopsla113-zhang.pdf Beats PyPy.

lispm 8y ago
> Well, resumable exceptions are not so great... I thought they are? > We really don't want them in Java (remember that Java is a language originally designed by Lispers). Who of the Oak team were Lispers? Not even Gosling has ever seen or used a competent Lisp implementation - he wrote a 'Mock' Lisp without lists ;-) for an Emacs written in C on Unix. One of his many projects. Stallman later implemented a slightly better Lisp using Goslings C code as a start. > I've used Racket (and PLT Scheme before it) quite a bit (I was a Schemer when Java barely even existed), and Guile None of them have especially interesting runtimes. Racket now gets a new runtime based on Chez Scheme from Cisco. Chez Scheme is actually great. You should have studied that. Well, source code is now available from Cisco. It has a nice AOT native compiler. > I started using Scheme in the mid-nineties. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many Scheme and Common Lisp users anywhere You were too late. SUN had its own Lisp offerings in the 80s. Like DEC/DIGITAL, IBM, Apple, HP, Apollo, Texas Instruments, Xerox, ...
- pron 8y ago
  Yes, I know Chez Scheme, and I know about the excitement around Lisp in the 80s, and now Clojure is giving Lisp a bit of a resurgence. I assure you that Lisp still has fans in the Java team today. I also know about various cool features in various runtimes -- we monitor the field closely and learn from everyone, but as those who've built the most successful programming runtime in the history of computing, which is also one of the most successful and capable Lisp runtimes in the history of computing, and also made not one but several breakthroughs in JIT compilation, garbage collection and low-overhead monitoring, the Java team knows a thing or two, as well, especially about which features have a big impact.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]