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> What relationship have continuations to making Java exceptions resumeable? We don't want resumable exceptions for Java. But if you want to implement a Lisp t

by pron 8y ago

> What relationship have continuations to making Java exceptions resumeable? We don't want resumable exceptions for Java. But if you want to implement a Lisp that has them on the JVM, you'll be able to use continuations for that. > but you have never used one of the Lisp runtimes like Allegro CL and you simply don't know what they provide and when it comes to specific capabilities, they are not important to YOU, because JVM users don't use them - given that they have no choice. I have never used Allegro, and, as I said, some capabilities that are important to some people may be missing on the JVM. But it seems that most Lispers prefer what the JVM has to offer, which is high performance, low-latency GC, low-overhead monitoring, and a huge ecosystem. > not because it is technically or capability-wise a good platform for their niche language. True, but most people don't care about what's good for their language, they care about what's good for their program (and users). It seems like more people prefer Lisp on the JVM, even if they have to give up some features (and they'll need to give up fewer features with Loom). > Not Smalltalk, not Lisp, not Scheme, not Python, not Ruby, ... Python and Ruby are actually most performant on the JVM nowadays. Look up TruffleRuby and GraalPython. They're just very new. Even TruffleJS is almost as good as V8.

lispm 8y ago
> We don't want resumable exceptions for Java. So the Java libs I'd have to use would not support them. Not so great. > I have never used Allegro So the totality of your opinion of the JVM being better for Lisp comes from exactly what knowledge? Oracle marketing? > But it seems that most Lispers prefer what the JVM has to offer, which is high performance, low-latency GC, low-overhead monitoring, and a huge ecosystem. You mean Clojure users recruited from Java? I have never seen many Scheme, Common Lisp, Javascript, Julia, ... users on the JVM. > Python and Ruby are actually most performant on the JVM nowadays. Look up TruffleRuby and GraalPython. They're just very new. Even TruffleJS is almost as good as V8. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/performance/nbody.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... Really? Looks to me that it's not particular fast. [GraalVM CE, Java 1.8.0_202] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. Please note: This Python implementation is in the very early stages, and can run little more than basic benchmarks at this point. Haha, basic benchmarks, okay. Size '178939568' okay. Probably the largest Python implementation in the world...
- pron 8y ago
  > Not so great. Well, resumable exceptions are not so great... We really don't want them in Java (remember that Java is a language originally designed by Lispers). > So the totality of your opinion of the JVM being better for Lisp comes from exactly what knowledge? Oracle marketing? I've used Racket (and PLT Scheme before it) quite a bit (I was a Schemer when Java barely even existed), and Guile, and, of course, Clojure. Also, Oracle marketing is quite terrible. > You mean Clojure users recruited from Java? I have never seen many Scheme, Common Lisp, Javascript, Julia, ... users on the JVM. I started using Scheme in the mid-nineties. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many Scheme and Common Lisp users anywhere. Clojure is the first in over three decades to be used on any noticeable scale in industry. There are plenty of people that run JS on the JVM (probably ten times all non-Clojure Lispers), and Julia is still new. > Really? Looks to me that it's not particular fast. It's very fast. Here's some benchmarks with early prototypes: http://thezhangwei.com/documents/oopsla113-zhang.pdf http://thezhangwei.com/documents/oopsla113-zhang.pdf Beats PyPy.
  - lispm 8y ago
    > Well, resumable exceptions are not so great... I thought they are? > We really don't want them in Java (remember that Java is a language originally designed by Lispers). Who of the Oak team were Lispers? Not even Gosling has ever seen or used a competent Lisp implementation - he wrote a 'Mock' Lisp without lists ;-) for an Emacs written in C on Unix. One of his many projects. Stallman later implemented a slightly better Lisp using Goslings C code as a start. > I've used Racket (and PLT Scheme before it) quite a bit (I was a Schemer when Java barely even existed), and Guile None of them have especially interesting runtimes. Racket now gets a new runtime based on Chez Scheme from Cisco. Chez Scheme is actually great. You should have studied that. Well, source code is now available from Cisco. It has a nice AOT native compiler. > I started using Scheme in the mid-nineties. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many Scheme and Common Lisp users anywhere You were too late. SUN had its own Lisp offerings in the 80s. Like DEC/DIGITAL, IBM, Apple, HP, Apollo, Texas Instruments, Xerox, ...
    - pron 8y ago

by pron 8y ago

lispm 8y ago

> We don't want resumable exceptions for Java. So the Java libs I'd have to use would not support them. Not so great. > I have never used Allegro So the totality of your opinion of the JVM being better for Lisp comes from exactly what knowledge? Oracle marketing? > But it seems that most Lispers prefer what the JVM has to offer, which is high performance, low-latency GC, low-overhead monitoring, and a huge ecosystem. You mean Clojure users recruited from Java? I have never seen many Scheme, Common Lisp, Javascript, Julia, ... users on the JVM. > Python and Ruby are actually most performant on the JVM nowadays. Look up TruffleRuby and GraalPython. They're just very new. Even TruffleJS is almost as good as V8. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/performance/nbody.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... Really? Looks to me that it's not particular fast. [GraalVM CE, Java 1.8.0_202] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. Please note: This Python implementation is in the very early stages, and can run little more than basic benchmarks at this point. Haha, basic benchmarks, okay. Size '178939568' okay. Probably the largest Python implementation in the world...

pron 8y ago
> Not so great. Well, resumable exceptions are not so great... We really don't want them in Java (remember that Java is a language originally designed by Lispers). > So the totality of your opinion of the JVM being better for Lisp comes from exactly what knowledge? Oracle marketing? I've used Racket (and PLT Scheme before it) quite a bit (I was a Schemer when Java barely even existed), and Guile, and, of course, Clojure. Also, Oracle marketing is quite terrible. > You mean Clojure users recruited from Java? I have never seen many Scheme, Common Lisp, Javascript, Julia, ... users on the JVM. I started using Scheme in the mid-nineties. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many Scheme and Common Lisp users anywhere. Clojure is the first in over three decades to be used on any noticeable scale in industry. There are plenty of people that run JS on the JVM (probably ten times all non-Clojure Lispers), and Julia is still new. > Really? Looks to me that it's not particular fast. It's very fast. Here's some benchmarks with early prototypes: http://thezhangwei.com/documents/oopsla113-zhang.pdf http://thezhangwei.com/documents/oopsla113-zhang.pdf Beats PyPy.
- lispm 8y ago
  > Well, resumable exceptions are not so great... I thought they are? > We really don't want them in Java (remember that Java is a language originally designed by Lispers). Who of the Oak team were Lispers? Not even Gosling has ever seen or used a competent Lisp implementation - he wrote a 'Mock' Lisp without lists ;-) for an Emacs written in C on Unix. One of his many projects. Stallman later implemented a slightly better Lisp using Goslings C code as a start. > I've used Racket (and PLT Scheme before it) quite a bit (I was a Schemer when Java barely even existed), and Guile None of them have especially interesting runtimes. Racket now gets a new runtime based on Chez Scheme from Cisco. Chez Scheme is actually great. You should have studied that. Well, source code is now available from Cisco. It has a nice AOT native compiler. > I started using Scheme in the mid-nineties. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many Scheme and Common Lisp users anywhere You were too late. SUN had its own Lisp offerings in the 80s. Like DEC/DIGITAL, IBM, Apple, HP, Apollo, Texas Instruments, Xerox, ...
  - pron 8y ago