6 ms·

I wholly agree with your statement. I would add that, sadly, its like this with most things Google: 1) vague descriptions of the problem, 2) impossible to get s

by redm 7y ago

I wholly agree with your statement. I would add that, sadly, its like this with most things Google: 1) vague descriptions of the problem, 2) impossible to get support or talk to anyone, 3) severe consequences (because of the ubiquity of Google’s platforms i.e. search, Gmail, Android, Chrome). Anyone who’s had a safe browsing problem, an App Store issue, or, heaven forbid, an AdSense issue will attest. As far as it relates to email, this is why platforms like Sendgrid got so popular, they manage the relationship with Google and others for you.

organsnyder 7y ago
Email deliverability has been a hassle for a long time. 15 years ago, AOL was the juggernaut that made sysadmin's lives difficult. I do agree that Google's outsize influence in so many markets is concerning.
- chrismeller 7y ago
  It's interesting that you bring up AOL, because I remember dealing with this kind of crap with them. It was annoying, but didn't feel like it was as big of a deal. I guess the only real difference is that with AOL it was less insidious... You knew it was only for aol.com emails and that you weren't dealing with business info. Not that emails to personal addresses aren't important, but at least it wasn't suddenly SomeRandomFortune500Customer.com that sales is trying to email a proposal to right before the deadline that "is make or break for the entire company!"...
  - hitpointdrew 7y ago
    >It was annoying, but didn't feel like it was as big of a deal. Perhaps because email itself wasn't as big of deal back then? Phone calls and snail mail were used with a lot more regularity back then.
    - chrismeller 7y ago
      Heh. I’ll be honest, that sounds a lot like a millennial projecting onto all the old people in this thread. Sure there’s an element of truth to it, but email was insanely popular before the iPhone too...
      - amenod 7y ago
        He he, this. E-mail rised in the 90s and was hugely popular very soon, because it brought real benefits. I was under impression that in today's world the number of emails is going down (on account of social networks and whatnot).
      - hitpointdrew 7y ago
        >like a millennial projecting Well, I am almost 40, so not really a millennial at all, but a gen x'er. And I remember being in college and going days, maybe weeks without checking email. I also remember my university giving me an a .edu address, which I was technically supposed to use (supposedly there was important information sent to it from professors), but never logged into once.
  - _jal 7y ago
    AOL had a highly competent mail administration outfit, at least compared to other big shops at the time. It could be annoying to deal with them at times, but they had fair, mostly sane processes and I could always get in touch with a technical person with authority there. (They may still be this good, I just haven't had reason to deal with them for quite a while.) Google - well, I haven't had to, but can get in touch with a competent person there, but not officially. Which is not the case with ATT, with whom I have had a mail issue for over a decade. At this point I'm thinking either their postmaster died in his closet office back in about 2006 and nobody noticed, or they simply don't give a damn.
    - chrismeller 7y ago
      Didn’t AT&T outsource all their email to Yahoo! a decade or so ago? Not sure I agree about being able to reach a tech person at Google, even informally. Bitching on Twitter can get some results, but that’s hardly the way to operate a business...
      - _jal 7y ago
        Didn't mean to imply that Google's stance is a good thing. It absolutely should not be the case that you need a pal in the right department to get something done, but that seems to be where we are - our Politburos are just privatized. Edit - My mail issue specifically is with WorldNet. I believe that's run by an ATT spinoff call "Maillennium", but maybe that changed. I don't especially care from a practical perspective; there is exactly one person whom this affects and we worked around it forever ago. I just see it as a barometer of ATT's interest in being a competent network operator.
  - rdiddly 7y ago
    You might have grounds for a lawsuit if it broke your company.
  - npsimons 7y ago
    > It's interesting that you bring up AOL, because I remember dealing with this kind of crap with them. It was annoying, but didn't feel like it was as big of a deal. I do too, because there was an actual useful URL that had contact info in the bounces and SMTP errors. IIRC, I actually managed to get a human being on the phone and got this sorted right quick!
jonnycomputer 7y ago
Break up Google/Alphabet. Way past time.
- _pmf_ 7y ago
  Would be a much more important case if the EU commission that cared about actual freedom instead of competitors.
  - DenseComet 7y ago
    The bigger problem is how to define what Google is and split it. Many of their platforms post losses like youtube, because they can afford to spend their ad money to prop it up. If you split away youtube, youtube would likely fold. Similar thing with android, Google props up android so they have an ecosystem they can get data from to use for ads. If android was split off, it would have no income stream and likely fold.
    - bsder 7y ago
      > If you split away youtube, youtube would likely fold. I see no problem with this. If you had to pay anything to distribute your video, the quality would soar relative to what we have now.
    - rodgerd 7y ago
      So we'd lose a neo-Nazi enrichment factory? Not seeing the problem.
- tedunangst 7y ago
  How would this fix delivery for gmail? Gmail will be the same monolith it is today.
  - arrosenberg 7y ago
    It wouldn't necessarily, but Google doesn't really provide help to customers who pay for services with their attention and data, largely because they have a substantial enough market position that they don't have to worry about losing their customer base. Breaking them up would be a remedy to the general attitude that big, concentrated companies often develop toward the average consumer.
dmitryminkovsky 7y ago
Google Ads support is incredible. I’ve been shocked. You can tell where their real business is. You call and you get a competent human in less than a few minutes. Also, Google email deliverability is good, inbound and outbound. I’ve been running an email service and have had no problems with them, unlike Hotmail/Outlook.
- xuki 7y ago
  Are you spending money on Adwords or receiving money from AdSense? I have heard many horror stories from Adsense but nothing from Adwords.
  - dmitryminkovsky 7y ago
    Sorry, didn't meant to be confusing. Specifically "Google Ads" which is how they they've rebranded AdWords, I believe. And so yes, spending money.
- YeahSureWhyNot 7y ago
  I would disagree, the 'AdWords Expert' I had a pleasure of speaking with sounded like someone who started there a week ago
  - dmitryminkovsky 7y ago
    Interesting. I've called 3 times, to give you a sense of my sample. They seem to have an interesting program going there. It's been at least fun to play with and run experiments.
- scrollaway 7y ago
  I've had mixed-to-excellent Google support on their Cloud and Fi products, as well as my various GSuite accounts. IMO what "you can tell" is that they have good support where you're actually a paying customer, and no support for their free products.
  - 7y ago

by redm 7y ago

organsnyder 7y ago

Email deliverability has been a hassle for a long time. 15 years ago, AOL was the juggernaut that made sysadmin's lives difficult. I do agree that Google's outsize influence in so many markets is concerning.

chrismeller 7y ago
It's interesting that you bring up AOL, because I remember dealing with this kind of crap with them. It was annoying, but didn't feel like it was as big of a deal. I guess the only real difference is that with AOL it was less insidious... You knew it was only for aol.com emails and that you weren't dealing with business info. Not that emails to personal addresses aren't important, but at least it wasn't suddenly SomeRandomFortune500Customer.com that sales is trying to email a proposal to right before the deadline that "is make or break for the entire company!"...
- hitpointdrew 7y ago
  >It was annoying, but didn't feel like it was as big of a deal. Perhaps because email itself wasn't as big of deal back then? Phone calls and snail mail were used with a lot more regularity back then.
  - chrismeller 7y ago
    Heh. I’ll be honest, that sounds a lot like a millennial projecting onto all the old people in this thread. Sure there’s an element of truth to it, but email was insanely popular before the iPhone too...
    - amenod 7y ago
      He he, this. E-mail rised in the 90s and was hugely popular very soon, because it brought real benefits. I was under impression that in today's world the number of emails is going down (on account of social networks and whatnot).
    - hitpointdrew 7y ago
      >like a millennial projecting Well, I am almost 40, so not really a millennial at all, but a gen x'er. And I remember being in college and going days, maybe weeks without checking email. I also remember my university giving me an a .edu address, which I was technically supposed to use (supposedly there was important information sent to it from professors), but never logged into once.
- _jal 7y ago
  AOL had a highly competent mail administration outfit, at least compared to other big shops at the time. It could be annoying to deal with them at times, but they had fair, mostly sane processes and I could always get in touch with a technical person with authority there. (They may still be this good, I just haven't had reason to deal with them for quite a while.) Google - well, I haven't had to, but can get in touch with a competent person there, but not officially. Which is not the case with ATT, with whom I have had a mail issue for over a decade. At this point I'm thinking either their postmaster died in his closet office back in about 2006 and nobody noticed, or they simply don't give a damn.
  - chrismeller 7y ago
    Didn’t AT&T outsource all their email to Yahoo! a decade or so ago? Not sure I agree about being able to reach a tech person at Google, even informally. Bitching on Twitter can get some results, but that’s hardly the way to operate a business...
    - _jal 7y ago
      Didn't mean to imply that Google's stance is a good thing. It absolutely should not be the case that you need a pal in the right department to get something done, but that seems to be where we are - our Politburos are just privatized. Edit - My mail issue specifically is with WorldNet. I believe that's run by an ATT spinoff call "Maillennium", but maybe that changed. I don't especially care from a practical perspective; there is exactly one person whom this affects and we worked around it forever ago. I just see it as a barometer of ATT's interest in being a competent network operator.
- rdiddly 7y ago
  You might have grounds for a lawsuit if it broke your company.
- npsimons 7y ago
  > It's interesting that you bring up AOL, because I remember dealing with this kind of crap with them. It was annoying, but didn't feel like it was as big of a deal. I do too, because there was an actual useful URL that had contact info in the bounces and SMTP errors. IIRC, I actually managed to get a human being on the phone and got this sorted right quick!

jonnycomputer 7y ago

Break up Google/Alphabet. Way past time.

_pmf_ 7y ago
Would be a much more important case if the EU commission that cared about actual freedom instead of competitors.
- DenseComet 7y ago
  The bigger problem is how to define what Google is and split it. Many of their platforms post losses like youtube, because they can afford to spend their ad money to prop it up. If you split away youtube, youtube would likely fold. Similar thing with android, Google props up android so they have an ecosystem they can get data from to use for ads. If android was split off, it would have no income stream and likely fold.
  - bsder 7y ago
    > If you split away youtube, youtube would likely fold. I see no problem with this. If you had to pay anything to distribute your video, the quality would soar relative to what we have now.
  - rodgerd 7y ago
    So we'd lose a neo-Nazi enrichment factory? Not seeing the problem.
tedunangst 7y ago
How would this fix delivery for gmail? Gmail will be the same monolith it is today.
- arrosenberg 7y ago
  It wouldn't necessarily, but Google doesn't really provide help to customers who pay for services with their attention and data, largely because they have a substantial enough market position that they don't have to worry about losing their customer base. Breaking them up would be a remedy to the general attitude that big, concentrated companies often develop toward the average consumer.

dmitryminkovsky 7y ago

Google Ads support is incredible. I’ve been shocked. You can tell where their real business is. You call and you get a competent human in less than a few minutes. Also, Google email deliverability is good, inbound and outbound. I’ve been running an email service and have had no problems with them, unlike Hotmail/Outlook.

xuki 7y ago
Are you spending money on Adwords or receiving money from AdSense? I have heard many horror stories from Adsense but nothing from Adwords.
- dmitryminkovsky 7y ago
  Sorry, didn't meant to be confusing. Specifically "Google Ads" which is how they they've rebranded AdWords, I believe. And so yes, spending money.
YeahSureWhyNot 7y ago
I would disagree, the 'AdWords Expert' I had a pleasure of speaking with sounded like someone who started there a week ago
- dmitryminkovsky 7y ago
  Interesting. I've called 3 times, to give you a sense of my sample. They seem to have an interesting program going there. It's been at least fun to play with and run experiments.
scrollaway 7y ago
I've had mixed-to-excellent Google support on their Cloud and Fi products, as well as my various GSuite accounts. IMO what "you can tell" is that they have good support where you're actually a paying customer, and no support for their free products.
- 7y ago