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Do you think the industrial designers were actually involved in the engineering of the keyboard (the source of the issues) or just the aesthetics (which look fi

Do you think the industrial designers were actually involved in the engineering of the keyboard (the source of the issues) or just the aesthetics (which look fine)?

sgustard 7y ago
Given that the old keyboard worked fine, and the only reason we have a new one is to shave a few millimeters, then yes I believe the designers are most directly responsible. Plus ID would tell you their role is much more than "aesthetics."
- ImprovedSilence 7y ago
  Maybe I'm an outlier, but I actually really like the feel of the new mbp keyboard, and going back to the old keyboard feels like i just stepped back in time and my ipod has a wheel on it again... This opinion subject to change if keys stop working. I would, however, give up some thinness for better battery life, that's for sure...
  - skavi 7y ago
    I use a mechanical keyboard (blue) on desktop, and previously used a relatively thick Lenovo laptop. If my 2018 MBP wasn't constantly double typing 'e', I'd rank it right up there with them in terms of feel. It's shallow, but very crisp, with just the right activation force. Though, if Apple couldn't fix its issues in three generations, it may be time for them to move on.
    - village-idiot 7y ago
      I still own a 2012 MacBook Air. While the old keys have a hell of a lot of depth, they’re also much more vague and “mushy”. I too prefer the new keyboard, although I wouldn’t rank them anywhere near an actual mechanical switch. My main fear with the new switches is the durability, but since my only new MacBooks are company machines, I won’t pay should some dust disable a key.
    - sbuk 7y ago
      It’s interesting that you lead with “I type on a mechanical keyboard”. I have long considered that at least part of the issue is related to heavier typing styles. I know that sounds like “your holding it wrong”, but thats not what I’m saying. As engineering solutions go, the keyboard they designed is extremely elegant. Maybe they didn’t account enough for how people type.
  - kccqzy 7y ago
    You are not alone. When the new keyboard actually works, it feels great. Going back to the old one feels mushy.
  - eeeeeeeeeeeee 7y ago
    I’ve had two MBPs fail on the keyboard issue. One that I’ve already had repaired is having the issue again. I do like the typing feel on these keyboards, but they should toss this design given the poor reliability. Every single person I know with this laptop has had issues.
scottlamb 7y ago
My uninformed guess is the designers insisted on thinness that engineering was unable to achieve without compromising other goals (reliability, feel, battery life). Aesthetics don't exist in a vacuum, and as a not-so-proud owner of this model I'd say Apple made the wrong choice.
- soperj 7y ago
  I still don't get the pre-occupation with thinness. Lightness I get, but thinness doesn't equal that. Seems absurd.
  - barbecue_sauce 7y ago
    The thing I like most about my MacBook Pro is that it's made out of aluminum. As long as its not absurdly heavy, I don't really care how thick or heavy it is.
    - rwallace 7y ago
      What exactly is it about aluminum that you like?
      - barbecue_sauce 7y ago
        I like the solidity. I like the texture. I like how it feels cold when I haven't used it in a few hours. Psychologically, it makes it feel more like a machine and less like a toy.
    - soperj 7y ago
      That's another thing I don't get at all. I'm ridiculously happy still with my galaxy s3 (yes 3), plastic back that i can remove in seconds. I've never had a case for it, and because it's plastic, when i've dropped it, it actually has some cushion. It's also thinner than my wife current iphone x with a case on it. What is the use case for aluminum other than "premium feel"?
  - oliveshell 7y ago
6nf 7y ago
Definitely, in fact most of their design work actually consists of designing fixtures and other parts used in the manufacturing process rather than the laptop parts themselves
- barbecue_sauce 7y ago
  I was under the impression that Industrial Design, as a discipline, is primarily concerned with the aesthetics of the end product, although my interactions with others about this leads me to believe this might be an American interpretation or a newer distillation of the concept.
  - m-ee 7y ago
    Never worked at Apple, but from what I've heard from friends there ID is a much more powerful role than at most hardware companies. They are the ones who define what the product should be and how the user interacts with it and tend to get the final say on such matters. At other companies this would be in an MRD/PRD defined by product managers or another group.
  - 6nf 7y ago
    Industrial Design as a discipline is no longer primarily concerned with aesthetics. It's a much more holistic discipline now with focus on manufacturability and TCO and so on and so forth.
sbuk 7y ago
Yes. That is industrial design. Industrial design degrees are heavily engineering based. Source: studied industrial design.
- Miserlou57 7y ago
  What country did you go to school? ID in the US definitely does not focus on engineering, but I hear in the UK and abroad product design and engineering degrees see a bit more inclusion in eachother’s curricula
  - sbuk 7y ago
    I studied in the UK and it was a BSc degree. Industrial Design should be engineering lead, if it isn't then it's Three Dimensional Design or Product Design. I studied it back in the early 90's, so it's not a new thing. I firmly believe that you cannot design something if you don't understand how it works or how it will be made. Design isn't about aesthetics - it's about solving problems, after all engineers design solutions.

Do you think the industrial designers were actually involved in the engineering of the keyboard (the source of the issues) or just the aesthetics (which look fine)?

sgustard 7y ago

Given that the old keyboard worked fine, and the only reason we have a new one is to shave a few millimeters, then yes I believe the designers are most directly responsible. Plus ID would tell you their role is much more than "aesthetics."

ImprovedSilence 7y ago
Maybe I'm an outlier, but I actually really like the feel of the new mbp keyboard, and going back to the old keyboard feels like i just stepped back in time and my ipod has a wheel on it again... This opinion subject to change if keys stop working. I would, however, give up some thinness for better battery life, that's for sure...
- skavi 7y ago
  I use a mechanical keyboard (blue) on desktop, and previously used a relatively thick Lenovo laptop. If my 2018 MBP wasn't constantly double typing 'e', I'd rank it right up there with them in terms of feel. It's shallow, but very crisp, with just the right activation force. Though, if Apple couldn't fix its issues in three generations, it may be time for them to move on.
  - village-idiot 7y ago
    I still own a 2012 MacBook Air. While the old keys have a hell of a lot of depth, they’re also much more vague and “mushy”. I too prefer the new keyboard, although I wouldn’t rank them anywhere near an actual mechanical switch. My main fear with the new switches is the durability, but since my only new MacBooks are company machines, I won’t pay should some dust disable a key.
  - sbuk 7y ago
    It’s interesting that you lead with “I type on a mechanical keyboard”. I have long considered that at least part of the issue is related to heavier typing styles. I know that sounds like “your holding it wrong”, but thats not what I’m saying. As engineering solutions go, the keyboard they designed is extremely elegant. Maybe they didn’t account enough for how people type.
- kccqzy 7y ago
  You are not alone. When the new keyboard actually works, it feels great. Going back to the old one feels mushy.
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 7y ago
  I’ve had two MBPs fail on the keyboard issue. One that I’ve already had repaired is having the issue again. I do like the typing feel on these keyboards, but they should toss this design given the poor reliability. Every single person I know with this laptop has had issues.

scottlamb 7y ago

My uninformed guess is the designers insisted on thinness that engineering was unable to achieve without compromising other goals (reliability, feel, battery life). Aesthetics don't exist in a vacuum, and as a not-so-proud owner of this model I'd say Apple made the wrong choice.

soperj 7y ago
I still don't get the pre-occupation with thinness. Lightness I get, but thinness doesn't equal that. Seems absurd.
- barbecue_sauce 7y ago
  The thing I like most about my MacBook Pro is that it's made out of aluminum. As long as its not absurdly heavy, I don't really care how thick or heavy it is.
  - rwallace 7y ago
    What exactly is it about aluminum that you like?
    - barbecue_sauce 7y ago
      I like the solidity. I like the texture. I like how it feels cold when I haven't used it in a few hours. Psychologically, it makes it feel more like a machine and less like a toy.
  - soperj 7y ago
    That's another thing I don't get at all. I'm ridiculously happy still with my galaxy s3 (yes 3), plastic back that i can remove in seconds. I've never had a case for it, and because it's plastic, when i've dropped it, it actually has some cushion. It's also thinner than my wife current iphone x with a case on it. What is the use case for aluminum other than "premium feel"?
- oliveshell 7y ago

6nf 7y ago

Definitely, in fact most of their design work actually consists of designing fixtures and other parts used in the manufacturing process rather than the laptop parts themselves

barbecue_sauce 7y ago
I was under the impression that Industrial Design, as a discipline, is primarily concerned with the aesthetics of the end product, although my interactions with others about this leads me to believe this might be an American interpretation or a newer distillation of the concept.
- m-ee 7y ago
  Never worked at Apple, but from what I've heard from friends there ID is a much more powerful role than at most hardware companies. They are the ones who define what the product should be and how the user interacts with it and tend to get the final say on such matters. At other companies this would be in an MRD/PRD defined by product managers or another group.
- 6nf 7y ago
  Industrial Design as a discipline is no longer primarily concerned with aesthetics. It's a much more holistic discipline now with focus on manufacturability and TCO and so on and so forth.

sbuk 7y ago

Yes. That is industrial design. Industrial design degrees are heavily engineering based. Source: studied industrial design.

Miserlou57 7y ago
What country did you go to school? ID in the US definitely does not focus on engineering, but I hear in the UK and abroad product design and engineering degrees see a bit more inclusion in eachother’s curricula
- sbuk 7y ago
  I studied in the UK and it was a BSc degree. Industrial Design should be engineering lead, if it isn't then it's Three Dimensional Design or Product Design. I studied it back in the early 90's, so it's not a new thing. I firmly believe that you cannot design something if you don't understand how it works or how it will be made. Design isn't about aesthetics - it's about solving problems, after all engineers design solutions.