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But fault tolerance, consensus or mining are not a necessary part of blockchain either.

by AmericanChopper 8y ago

mhluongo 8y ago
Consensus certainly is.
- 6nf 8y ago
  Mining too
  - AmericanChopper 8y ago
    Mining simply refers to rewarding nodes that work to verify transactions. A blockchain can exist without distributed verification, and without mining.
    - 6nf 8y ago
      Example?
      - AmericanChopper 8y ago
        Example of what? You’re quite clearly thinking about a mine-able crypto currency, of which blockchain tends to be an underlying data structure. You want a blockchain without mining? You could set one up in a couple of minutes. https://aws.amazon.com/blockchain/ https://aws.amazon.com/blockchain/ Do you want a real world example? It seems to be getting some use in supply chain management. https://www.ibm.com/blockchain/industries/supply-chain https://www.ibm.com/blockchain/industries/supply-chain A blockchain is just a type of data structure. Cryptocurrencies use blockchains, but mining, trustless distributed consensus, fault tolerance, and all these other things are features of cryptocurrency implementations, not essential elements of blockchains.
        6nf 8y ago
        Nobody is actually using 'blockchain' in production except to tick the buzzword box. That IBM page is just a puff piece and they have no clients using anything like that.
        AmericanChopper 8y ago
        Volkswagen quite publicly use that very solution from IBM, and there’s numerous other examples of it being used in supply chain management, which absolutely isn’t the only useful application of blockchains. It’s not even clear if you know what a blockchain is, and your comments on its usefulness are just as extreme and misinformed as the evangelists who say it can be used to solve any problem under the sun.
        6nf 8y ago
        Link me to the VW thing please? Last I checked there was literally no reason to use blockchain outside of cryptocurrencies since you get the same benefits just using GIT.
        tastroder 8y ago
        https://cointelegraph.com/news/volkswagen-joins-ibm-backed-blockchain-platform-for-cobalt-supply-chains https://cointelegraph.com/news/volkswagen-joins-ibm-backed-b... Looks like they want to use it to lower traditional auditing costs in developing countries. Not sure how the blockchain tech is supposed to help tracking materials or establish trust in such an environment but that's not really my field - presumably it adds a component of different people creating a digital paper trail that's harder to manipulate. That's an application compliance people in a few sectors seem to like these days, guess we'll see if it actually makes sense over traditional efforts in N years.
        AmericanChopper 8y ago
        Here you go. https://www.coindesk.com/volkswagen-to-track-minerals-supply-chains-using-ibm-blockchain https://www.coindesk.com/volkswagen-to-track-minerals-supply... > Last I checked there was literally no reason to use blockchain outside of cryptocurrencies since you get the same benefits just using GIT. How does the data structure of a git repo differ from a blockchain? The only difference I can see is in how it’s used. A blockchain wouldn’t have more than one permanent branch.
- AmericanChopper 8y ago
  Consensus is certainly not a necessary element of a blockchain. A blockchain can just as easily exist under the control of a central authority, as it could under any other circumstances. Unless you mean that you’re still achieving consensus by simply trusting the central authority, which I guess is technically correct, but that’s not how ‘consensus’ is generally used in relation to blockchains, it’s generally used to refer to trustless distributed consensus.
  - ramraj07 8y ago
    How is this different from git?
    - AmericanChopper 8y ago
      What makes git different from a blockchain? A blockchain is a data structure, and a data structure doesn’t change based on who has permission to write to it.
      - acdha 8y ago
        Those terms don’t have the meanings you’re using. Being a data structure is not a distinguishing factor – try finding a common definition which excludes Git – and there’s no definition of the term which excludes modifications.
        AmericanChopper 8y ago
        I’m not sure why you’re trying to say. The data structure is immutable by design. You can’t modify a git commit. But you haven’t answered my question. What’s the difference between a blockchain, and git?
smt88 8y ago
I put "true" in quotes because there are so many competing definitions for blockchain. I agree with other commenters that there is an original definition, but people rarely talk about blockchain these days without having the Bitcoin model in mind.
- AmericanChopper 8y ago
  People tend to use the word blockchain as a near synonym for cryptocurrency, but even as the article in this thread shows, it’s not the only application for it. A blockchain is just a type of data structure, very similar to a linked list, with _some_ additional integrity features. A lot of the pointless debate and highly opinionated grandstanding that takes place around blockchain is centred around misuse of the word. As far as data structures go, it’s a perfectly reasonable one, and has plenty of uses outside of cryptocurrency. Sure it’s a buzzword, but politicising the use of a particular data structure seems just as pointless as any other kind of dogmatic evangelism to me.
- davidgerard 8y ago
  I had a good old rant about that previously: https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2018/06/28/ibm-the-gdpr-and-blockchain-whatever-that-word-specifically-means/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2018/06/28/ibm-the-gdpr... You might come up with a reasonable definition, like "append-only ledger with a consensus mechanism" - but in marketing terms, "blockchain" literally only means "whatever I'm trying to sell you today." And then there's weasel terms like "blockchain technology", which means "I can't even claim this thing is actually even a blockchain, but it's got a few of the same parts."
  - tuesdayrain 8y ago
    I don't think it's fair or relevant to talk about hypothetical marketing definitions of a blockchain here. You wouldn't be discussing the merits of a linked list by mentioning the creative descriptions marketers can come up for it.
    - davidgerard 8y ago

But fault tolerance, consensus or mining are not a necessary part of blockchain either.

mhluongo 8y ago

Consensus certainly is.

6nf 8y ago
Mining too
- AmericanChopper 8y ago
  Mining simply refers to rewarding nodes that work to verify transactions. A blockchain can exist without distributed verification, and without mining.
  - 6nf 8y ago
    Example?
    - AmericanChopper 8y ago
      Example of what? You’re quite clearly thinking about a mine-able crypto currency, of which blockchain tends to be an underlying data structure. You want a blockchain without mining? You could set one up in a couple of minutes. https://aws.amazon.com/blockchain/ https://aws.amazon.com/blockchain/ Do you want a real world example? It seems to be getting some use in supply chain management. https://www.ibm.com/blockchain/industries/supply-chain https://www.ibm.com/blockchain/industries/supply-chain A blockchain is just a type of data structure. Cryptocurrencies use blockchains, but mining, trustless distributed consensus, fault tolerance, and all these other things are features of cryptocurrency implementations, not essential elements of blockchains.
      - 6nf 8y ago
        Nobody is actually using 'blockchain' in production except to tick the buzzword box. That IBM page is just a puff piece and they have no clients using anything like that.
        AmericanChopper 8y ago
        Volkswagen quite publicly use that very solution from IBM, and there’s numerous other examples of it being used in supply chain management, which absolutely isn’t the only useful application of blockchains. It’s not even clear if you know what a blockchain is, and your comments on its usefulness are just as extreme and misinformed as the evangelists who say it can be used to solve any problem under the sun.
        6nf 8y ago
        Link me to the VW thing please? Last I checked there was literally no reason to use blockchain outside of cryptocurrencies since you get the same benefits just using GIT.
        tastroder 8y ago
        https://cointelegraph.com/news/volkswagen-joins-ibm-backed-blockchain-platform-for-cobalt-supply-chains https://cointelegraph.com/news/volkswagen-joins-ibm-backed-b... Looks like they want to use it to lower traditional auditing costs in developing countries. Not sure how the blockchain tech is supposed to help tracking materials or establish trust in such an environment but that's not really my field - presumably it adds a component of different people creating a digital paper trail that's harder to manipulate. That's an application compliance people in a few sectors seem to like these days, guess we'll see if it actually makes sense over traditional efforts in N years.
        AmericanChopper 8y ago
        Here you go. https://www.coindesk.com/volkswagen-to-track-minerals-supply-chains-using-ibm-blockchain https://www.coindesk.com/volkswagen-to-track-minerals-supply... > Last I checked there was literally no reason to use blockchain outside of cryptocurrencies since you get the same benefits just using GIT. How does the data structure of a git repo differ from a blockchain? The only difference I can see is in how it’s used. A blockchain wouldn’t have more than one permanent branch.
AmericanChopper 8y ago
Consensus is certainly not a necessary element of a blockchain. A blockchain can just as easily exist under the control of a central authority, as it could under any other circumstances. Unless you mean that you’re still achieving consensus by simply trusting the central authority, which I guess is technically correct, but that’s not how ‘consensus’ is generally used in relation to blockchains, it’s generally used to refer to trustless distributed consensus.
- ramraj07 8y ago
  How is this different from git?
  - AmericanChopper 8y ago
    What makes git different from a blockchain? A blockchain is a data structure, and a data structure doesn’t change based on who has permission to write to it.
    - acdha 8y ago
      Those terms don’t have the meanings you’re using. Being a data structure is not a distinguishing factor – try finding a common definition which excludes Git – and there’s no definition of the term which excludes modifications.
      - AmericanChopper 8y ago
        I’m not sure why you’re trying to say. The data structure is immutable by design. You can’t modify a git commit. But you haven’t answered my question. What’s the difference between a blockchain, and git?

smt88 8y ago

I put "true" in quotes because there are so many competing definitions for blockchain. I agree with other commenters that there is an original definition, but people rarely talk about blockchain these days without having the Bitcoin model in mind.

AmericanChopper 8y ago
People tend to use the word blockchain as a near synonym for cryptocurrency, but even as the article in this thread shows, it’s not the only application for it. A blockchain is just a type of data structure, very similar to a linked list, with _some_ additional integrity features. A lot of the pointless debate and highly opinionated grandstanding that takes place around blockchain is centred around misuse of the word. As far as data structures go, it’s a perfectly reasonable one, and has plenty of uses outside of cryptocurrency. Sure it’s a buzzword, but politicising the use of a particular data structure seems just as pointless as any other kind of dogmatic evangelism to me.
davidgerard 8y ago
I had a good old rant about that previously: https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2018/06/28/ibm-the-gdpr-and-blockchain-whatever-that-word-specifically-means/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2018/06/28/ibm-the-gdpr... You might come up with a reasonable definition, like "append-only ledger with a consensus mechanism" - but in marketing terms, "blockchain" literally only means "whatever I'm trying to sell you today." And then there's weasel terms like "blockchain technology", which means "I can't even claim this thing is actually even a blockchain, but it's got a few of the same parts."
- tuesdayrain 8y ago
  I don't think it's fair or relevant to talk about hypothetical marketing definitions of a blockchain here. You wouldn't be discussing the merits of a linked list by mentioning the creative descriptions marketers can come up for it.
  - davidgerard 8y ago