9 ms·

Make that 6 months into two years and the sleep time to an average of 5 - 5.5 hours a night and you have parenthood of a crybaby. You have to add in a boss who

Make that 6 months into two years and the sleep time to an average of 5 - 5.5 hours a night and you have parenthood of a crybaby. You have to add in a boss who spends 2/3rd of the time you're home screaming at you to the mix.

kelnos 8y ago
Except that having a child is an optional activity that you choose to do, whereas going to work is (usually) required. Ideally that work doesn't include periods of extreme overwork, and lucky people are sometimes able to walk away from jobs that do, but many people just have to do it in order to put food on the table.
- beart 8y ago
  > Except that having a child is an optional activity that you choose to do I get what you are saying, but this is not a universal truth. Life gets complicated.
  - jolmg 8y ago
    For the vast majority, life doesn't get that complicated. I think even 5% of the population being forced into parenthood is too much of an exaggeration.
  - kelnos 8y ago
    The last time I was reading on this topic, around 10% of kids are actually unwanted -- that is, one or both parents did not want to ever have kids, or did not want to have more kids. Most kids are planned to some degree. For the remainder that aren't, the couple does want to have kids at some point, but they didn't plan to have kids at that particular time. Regardless, children are optional, full stop. There are certainly reasons why people who don't plan to have kids end up having them anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that it's an optional activity.
- sidlls 8y ago
  Work is optional. There are plenty of people who get by without it. Doesn't mean they're doing well or healthy. And for society to continue to function having children is actually not optional.
  - jolmg 8y ago
    > Work is optional. There are plenty of people who get by without it. Doesn't mean they're doing well or healthy. Except if you don't have a kid, you have better chances of staying well and healthy. That's the whole point. That's what is meant with parenthood being optional and work not. > And for society to continue to function having children is actually not optional. With the rate at which world population is increasing[1], I think the opposite is true. It wasn't that long ago that we reached a world population of 7 billion. Now, we're apparently more than halfway to 8 billion. How in the world can the earth support so many of us? Yesterday, there was a post here that talked about the absolutely brutal conditions that we're raising livestock in[2]. We wouldn't need to be so god damn efficient in working livestock if we didn't have so many mouths to feed. [1] http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19743006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19743006
    - rootusrootus 8y ago
      Well, if everyone stopped having kids effective immediately, we could have the population issue solved very quickly. Along with all our other problems, too, after a few decades of suffering.
    - gilleain 8y ago
      7 billion, not trillion
      - jolmg 8y ago
        :P Thanks. Fun Fact I learned from that link: Supposedly, we'll be reaching our first trillion sometime between 2050 and 2060. That's actually pretty close.
- rexpop 8y ago
  Having a child is optional for individuals, but not for society, and so it's really only "pseudo-optional" for individuals: there is some distributed portion of requirement on everyone.
  - johnm1019 8y ago
    I wish there was more discussion about how society should recognize and handle this. Much of modern society is orthogonal to parenting and raising children, I would love to see it addressed more in the public discourse -- maybe even "disrupted" by tech so we can be thrice better parents, citizens, and workers.
    - sjg007 8y ago
      I mean, I see government having a role here. Both in developing pro child development resources and policies. Europe is way ahead of the US for example. Some US states are way better than others as well.
- munk-a 8y ago
  Nobody should be forced to work 75 hrs to put food on the table, it's dehumanizing and we, as a society, have enough wealth to make sure everyone can live a minimally enjoyable life.
  - kelnos 8y ago
    Not sure where you're reading that in what I said.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  having a child is ...optional A high percentage of children are not planned. They are a natural consequence of sex, which Mother Nature sneakily designed to be desirable in its own right, whether people wanted babies or not. Most of human sexual morality seems to be rooted in this inconvenient, annoying fact of life.
  - kelnos 8y ago
    Accidents happen, sure. Education, availability, and consistent use of contraception is nowhere near where it should be (and even where it is, it's not foolproof). And when contraception fails, access to abortion can be difficult depending on local regulation, and many people have an aversion to that option for various reasons. But none of that changes the fact that having a child is indeed optional.
gwbas1c 8y ago
As a parent who added a second child when my first was 2 and a half, I think you're doing it wrong. A year later, both children are still extremely demanding. It's all about setting limits and knowing when to bend them, like last night when my daughter finally figured out how to wake herself up in the middle of the night to go poop. That's one of the rare sleepless nights that's worth it. Otherwise, knowing how you sleep is also important. I fumble around in the dark, use extremely dim lights, and have no problem letting my kids sleep with me for an hour or two. A full night's sleep is vital. I'm really good at falling asleep after giving a bottle because I make them before going to bed, turn on no lights, and keep my eyes closed once I'm in the rocking chair. > You have to add in a boss who spends 2/3rd of the time you're home screaming at you to the mix. You really need to learn modern discipline techniques. We use 1-2-3 magic. When our toddler screams at us, it's usually an immediate "ONE!" If it's really bad, there's a time out with no counting. It really works. I even help my wife learn by shouting "ONE!" "TWO!" ... when I'm out of the room and hear my toddler get tough. The 1-2-3 magic technique requires a lot of disciple to not get sucked into a toddler argument. See https://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-Children/dp/1889140163/ref=sr_1_3?crid=X0IAN6HFZNBZ&keywords=1+2+3+magic&qid=1556228008&s=gateway&sprefix=1+2+3+magic%2Caps%2C140&sr=8-3 https://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-Chil...
- new299 8y ago
  The advice is interesting, but I don’t think warrant telling someone “they’re doing it wrong”. Your extrapolating from your experience with 2 children. Children are difficult and often respond differently to the same techniques. However if you wanted to show that a particular technique is superior in the majority of cases, some data would be useful. In general, the workload of parenting is underestimated. This is somewhat problematic in the tech industry (male dominated) when the majority of childcare is still performed by women [1]. It leads to a lack of understanding and devalues childcare work. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jul/05/childcare-men-pull-weight https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jul/05/childca...
  - sjg007 8y ago
    I think the real problem is that almost all parents have no experience in early childhood development. They sort of learn as they go and infer the good things that happened to them. Parents are by no means early childhood development experts. Just like you go to a medical doctor you can find professionals who can help.
jedberg 8y ago
> You have to add in a boss who spends 2/3rd of the time you're home screaming at you to the mix. And crapping their pants while staring at you to show you who's really the boss.

kelnos 8y ago

Except that having a child is an optional activity that you choose to do, whereas going to work is (usually) required. Ideally that work doesn't include periods of extreme overwork, and lucky people are sometimes able to walk away from jobs that do, but many people just have to do it in order to put food on the table.

beart 8y ago
> Except that having a child is an optional activity that you choose to do I get what you are saying, but this is not a universal truth. Life gets complicated.
- jolmg 8y ago
  For the vast majority, life doesn't get that complicated. I think even 5% of the population being forced into parenthood is too much of an exaggeration.
- kelnos 8y ago
  The last time I was reading on this topic, around 10% of kids are actually unwanted -- that is, one or both parents did not want to ever have kids, or did not want to have more kids. Most kids are planned to some degree. For the remainder that aren't, the couple does want to have kids at some point, but they didn't plan to have kids at that particular time. Regardless, children are optional, full stop. There are certainly reasons why people who don't plan to have kids end up having them anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that it's an optional activity.
sidlls 8y ago
Work is optional. There are plenty of people who get by without it. Doesn't mean they're doing well or healthy. And for society to continue to function having children is actually not optional.
- jolmg 8y ago
  > Work is optional. There are plenty of people who get by without it. Doesn't mean they're doing well or healthy. Except if you don't have a kid, you have better chances of staying well and healthy. That's the whole point. That's what is meant with parenthood being optional and work not. > And for society to continue to function having children is actually not optional. With the rate at which world population is increasing[1], I think the opposite is true. It wasn't that long ago that we reached a world population of 7 billion. Now, we're apparently more than halfway to 8 billion. How in the world can the earth support so many of us? Yesterday, there was a post here that talked about the absolutely brutal conditions that we're raising livestock in[2]. We wouldn't need to be so god damn efficient in working livestock if we didn't have so many mouths to feed. [1] http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19743006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19743006
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    Well, if everyone stopped having kids effective immediately, we could have the population issue solved very quickly. Along with all our other problems, too, after a few decades of suffering.
  - gilleain 8y ago
    7 billion, not trillion
    - jolmg 8y ago
      :P Thanks. Fun Fact I learned from that link: Supposedly, we'll be reaching our first trillion sometime between 2050 and 2060. That's actually pretty close.
rexpop 8y ago
Having a child is optional for individuals, but not for society, and so it's really only "pseudo-optional" for individuals: there is some distributed portion of requirement on everyone.
- johnm1019 8y ago
  I wish there was more discussion about how society should recognize and handle this. Much of modern society is orthogonal to parenting and raising children, I would love to see it addressed more in the public discourse -- maybe even "disrupted" by tech so we can be thrice better parents, citizens, and workers.
  - sjg007 8y ago
    I mean, I see government having a role here. Both in developing pro child development resources and policies. Europe is way ahead of the US for example. Some US states are way better than others as well.
munk-a 8y ago
Nobody should be forced to work 75 hrs to put food on the table, it's dehumanizing and we, as a society, have enough wealth to make sure everyone can live a minimally enjoyable life.
- kelnos 8y ago
  Not sure where you're reading that in what I said.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
having a child is ...optional A high percentage of children are not planned. They are a natural consequence of sex, which Mother Nature sneakily designed to be desirable in its own right, whether people wanted babies or not. Most of human sexual morality seems to be rooted in this inconvenient, annoying fact of life.
- kelnos 8y ago
  Accidents happen, sure. Education, availability, and consistent use of contraception is nowhere near where it should be (and even where it is, it's not foolproof). And when contraception fails, access to abortion can be difficult depending on local regulation, and many people have an aversion to that option for various reasons. But none of that changes the fact that having a child is indeed optional.

gwbas1c 8y ago

As a parent who added a second child when my first was 2 and a half, I think you're doing it wrong. A year later, both children are still extremely demanding. It's all about setting limits and knowing when to bend them, like last night when my daughter finally figured out how to wake herself up in the middle of the night to go poop. That's one of the rare sleepless nights that's worth it. Otherwise, knowing how you sleep is also important. I fumble around in the dark, use extremely dim lights, and have no problem letting my kids sleep with me for an hour or two. A full night's sleep is vital. I'm really good at falling asleep after giving a bottle because I make them before going to bed, turn on no lights, and keep my eyes closed once I'm in the rocking chair. > You have to add in a boss who spends 2/3rd of the time you're home screaming at you to the mix. You really need to learn modern discipline techniques. We use 1-2-3 magic. When our toddler screams at us, it's usually an immediate "ONE!" If it's really bad, there's a time out with no counting. It really works. I even help my wife learn by shouting "ONE!" "TWO!" ... when I'm out of the room and hear my toddler get tough. The 1-2-3 magic technique requires a lot of disciple to not get sucked into a toddler argument. See https://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-Children/dp/1889140163/ref=sr_1_3?crid=X0IAN6HFZNBZ&keywords=1+2+3+magic&qid=1556228008&s=gateway&sprefix=1+2+3+magic%2Caps%2C140&sr=8-3 https://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-Chil...

new299 8y ago
The advice is interesting, but I don’t think warrant telling someone “they’re doing it wrong”. Your extrapolating from your experience with 2 children. Children are difficult and often respond differently to the same techniques. However if you wanted to show that a particular technique is superior in the majority of cases, some data would be useful. In general, the workload of parenting is underestimated. This is somewhat problematic in the tech industry (male dominated) when the majority of childcare is still performed by women [1]. It leads to a lack of understanding and devalues childcare work. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jul/05/childcare-men-pull-weight https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jul/05/childca...
- sjg007 8y ago
  I think the real problem is that almost all parents have no experience in early childhood development. They sort of learn as they go and infer the good things that happened to them. Parents are by no means early childhood development experts. Just like you go to a medical doctor you can find professionals who can help.

jedberg 8y ago

> You have to add in a boss who spends 2/3rd of the time you're home screaming at you to the mix. And crapping their pants while staring at you to show you who's really the boss.