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This story doesn't really explain what killed lard in Europe. They don't sell Crisco or any other kind of shortening here in Norway, for example. Norwegian reci

by ThJ 7y ago

This story doesn't really explain what killed lard in Europe. They don't sell Crisco or any other kind of shortening here in Norway, for example. Norwegian recipes often call for butter, but rarely for lard. Few things are ever deep fried and in pie crusts, we use butter, not lard. The closest thing you can find to shortening in a Norwegian supermarket is coco fat. The only thing I know of that was traditionally cooked in lard is donuts, which are literally named lardrings (smultringer) in Norwegian. What happened in Norway is that butter was rationed because of WWII and they introduced margarine (another product of hydrogenation) as a substitute, and after the war, it was promoted as a healthier alternative to butter. Lard must've been around, especially in other parts of Europe than Norway, but I doubt these domestic American events killed it. I often see Americans attempting to explain why things happen in their country by pointing to domestic events, with said events failing to account for an identical thing happening all over the world.

tyingq 7y ago
"The only thing I know of that was traditionally cooked in lard is donuts" Makes a huge difference with cake donuts. They are crispy on the outside, and moist, and hold cinnamon/sugar on the outside. Haven't had one in quite a while though...all the US donut stores use vegetable oil.
astine 7y ago
It sounds as if lard was never a very big thing in Norway whereas it was at one point in the United States. It seems as if it could just be a coincidence what happened in the States and in Europe.
ghaff 7y ago
>What happened in Norway is that butter was rationed because of WWII and they introduced margarine (another product of hydrogenation) as a substitute, and after the war, it was promoted as a healthier alternative to butter. Margarine was extremely popular in the US for a time (and there's still plenty of it in grocery stores). Among health conscious people, butter was looked on with suspicion as recently as 20 years or so ago. (I ran/run weekend hiking trips sometimes and 20 years ago, I would definitely have gotten dirty looks if I only bought butter. Today no one cares.) Crisco was pretty popular at one point in the US but AFAIK it's receded quite a bit. I don't do a lot of baking but I don't really see it in recipes these days. And lard is still not in mainstream use at all.
- LeifCarrotson 7y ago
  Health conscious people prefer margarine to butter on a hiking trip? Must be some pretty relaxed trips: Food is fuel, the more calories the better! I carry peanut butter and Crisco on my backpacking and canoeing trips...they're heavy, but nutritionally dense! A peanut butter jar might last you two months at home, but you can likely expect to be packing the empty jar out with you after a week in the woods.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    Most people doing weekend trips don't suddenly abandon their day to day eating habits and start eating jars of peanut butter and mayonnaise. ADDED: That wasn't intended as snark but my observation is that most people on weekend dayhike trips or even multi-day backpacks maintain fairly conventional eating habits even if they're not energy/weight optimal. I certainly do.
  - jdminhbg 7y ago
    The calories aren't the issue; as far as I know butter and margarine have about the same amount per serving. Margarine was preferred because it was thought that the saturated fat in butter was going to clog your arteries and kill you.
    - atomical 7y ago
      Saturated fat is bad for health. This is established science and your comment is science denial. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/fat/art-20045550 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h...
      - phonypc 7y ago
        It's not nearly that simple. And the person you're responding to didn't even actually deny that saturated fat is unhealthy, why jump on them like that? Needlessly inflammatory.
christkv 7y ago
You can find lard in Spain pretty easily some stores even have lard from ibérico style pigs with a much deeper flavor. I imagine most Southern Europe and Eastern Europe has easy access.
- stefs 7y ago
  used to cook a lot with lard in the last 5 years in austria, after discovering that many supermarkets stock it. right now i prefer clarified butter. the only vegetable oil in my pantry is pumpkin seed oil for salads. margarine is banned in my household; my mother used to use it but switched back to butter and lard in recent years.
gambiting 7y ago
There is absolutely zero issue buying lard in Poland. Literally any store will have some in fridges next to meat.
- twic 7y ago
  In a Polish restaurant, i had a starter of lard on bread - you get some slices of bread, and a pot of lard with little flecks of gherkin or something in it. I wasn't all that taken with it, i have to confess. But in Britain we do have, or once had, something distantly related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dripping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dripping https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/features/dripping-is-one-of-britains-forgotten-ingredients-now-its-making-a-timely-comeback-9800111.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/feat...
  - projektir 7y ago
    > In a Polish restaurant, i had a starter of lard on bread This sounds like something they could do in Ukraine. Was the large a solid piece, or a spread? Eating solid pieces of pork fat is very normal in Ukraine.
    - twic 7y ago
      It was like a spread - i could scoop it up with a spoon, rather than having to slice it. I haven't had a chance to try to Ukrainian style solid fat!
      - arkades 7y ago
        Oh, it's a major thing. And it's delicious. You can pick it up in any Russian grocery on the east coast.
    - Mediterraneo10 7y ago
      Pork lard is eaten in the same way across Eastern Europe, not just in Poland or Ukraine, i.e. also in Hungary, Romania, the former Yugoslavia, and Russia and among Russians in Central Asia.
da_chicken 7y ago
> This story doesn't really explain what killed lard in Europe. It's NPR. It's an American news channel. It's not trying to detail the history of Europe. I don't mean to take this out on you because your comment is informative and interesting, but I'm really getting frustrated with this so often being the top comment's criticism on HN, or being the top responding criticism to the top comment on HN. Simply put, it's a Eurocentric criticism. It always reads like, "Why didn't this journalist consider Europe when they wrote this piece?" Perhaps it's different on European sites, but American sites don't bother contextualizing which nation they're talking about because the context is already self-evident to the primary Anglo American audience. News stories don't appear in English as a lingua franca; it's just the primary language. It's not that we don't care about Europe. It's just too far away. Europe just isn't the default American context. We don't qualify our journalism if it's only about America.
- ska 7y ago
  I think there is another way to read that comment. That lard is also unusual in Denmark, but the mechanisms being presented here don't really fit. In other words, there are other mechanisms at work, and perhaps that calls into question the narrative... Of course it could just be that they are different places.
  - chrisdhoover 7y ago
    Thats how I read it. If they reason that lard went away in the US is not the same reason it went away in the EU, then what is the EU reason and does the EU reason cast doubt on the US reason.
    - vonmoltke 7y ago
      The original comment makes it sound like lard was never really there to begin with in Europe, or at least Scandinavia. There was no "going away" in Europe, so nothing to really inform the hypothesis on it's fall in the US.
      - 7y ago
Aloha 7y ago
I always thought Dairy was more prominent in the Nordic countries, not much pig farming goes on there, I thought.
Bayart 7y ago
Interestingly enough what seems to have killed lard, at least the most common domestic use of it (making fries), in France and Belgium really is hydrogenated vegetal oil. Fries simply taste better. And it's also much worse for your health. Since it was commercialized just after WW2 and lard had been used as a butter substitute during the war there was a favourable context for it to happen. Lard is still used extensively in butcher shops as part of pork preparations (rillettes, grattons etc.). Mostly traditional/regional stuff.
- thepangolino 7y ago
  Hydrogenated vegetal oil comes nowhere near lard when it comes to taste for fries. I’m a Belgian talking so maybe I’m biased.
  - gutnor 7y ago
    I think the argument is that animal fat is harder to maintain and more expensive than super-cheap "never" spoiling industrial fat ? BTW isn't beef fat used to make Belgian fries ? I agree with you though, traditional fries made with animal fat is in a league of its own. In the UK, you can find lard pretty much everywhere. The little Tesco express down the road will have some.
    - n-i-c-e 7y ago
      The lard you find in supermarkets is tasteless, hydrogenated dross, fit only for making soap. If you want actual lard, and you don't want to pay through the nose to get it from a specialty provider, you can visit your local butcher and ask for fat trimmings (tell him you're going to feed them to your dog if he has any misgivings) and render it yourself. It'll cost you next to nothing and it's extremely good for you. While you're there, pick up a few marrow bones too. And some offal. I get about 40% of my calories from lard/tallow, and I've never felt better.
      - gutnor 7y ago
        Living in London right now. Finding bone marrow, fat trimmings, or most of the cheap by-product of whole animal butchering is not as easily available even from a good local butcher. Some butcher still do, I manage to find some stuff in halal butcher and random butchers around town, but 40 min travel to find a bag of bone is not something you do past the exitement of the first time.
walshemj 7y ago
Lard is still sold in the UK - its what I use when I cook chips (fries) from scratch.
dr5penes 7y ago
Lard is in all major supermarkets in the UK.
mirimir 7y ago
So did margarine continue displacing butter after WWII? If TFA were generalized some, it would help explain what killed lard and butter in the US. The lard-to-Crisco and butter-to-margarine narratives have much in common. Different companies were involved, but it was all enabled by hydrogenation. And there were the same (now known to be bogus) health claims vs saturated fats. Health claims that were undoubtedly sourced, at least in part, by sellers of partially hydrogenated vegetable oils.
- philwelch 7y ago
  One of the biggest high-profile product launches of the 90's was for the margarine brand "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter!", which launched with a huge ad campaign featuring the then-faddishly-popular male model Fabio.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Sorry, I meant in Norway.
    - philwelch 7y ago
      Ah. My apologies.
scottlocklin 7y ago
> I often see Americans attempting to explain why things happen in their country by pointing to domestic events, with said events failing to account for an identical thing happening all over the world. I often see American colonies who labor under the delusion they have agency. Lard going away in Norway is much like Lysenkoism being popular in communist Poland.
ginko 7y ago
>The closest thing you can find to shortening in a Norwegian supermarket is coco fat You can get regular lard frozen at Meny.

by ThJ 7y ago

tyingq 7y ago

"The only thing I know of that was traditionally cooked in lard is donuts" Makes a huge difference with cake donuts. They are crispy on the outside, and moist, and hold cinnamon/sugar on the outside. Haven't had one in quite a while though...all the US donut stores use vegetable oil.

astine 7y ago

It sounds as if lard was never a very big thing in Norway whereas it was at one point in the United States. It seems as if it could just be a coincidence what happened in the States and in Europe.

ghaff 7y ago

>What happened in Norway is that butter was rationed because of WWII and they introduced margarine (another product of hydrogenation) as a substitute, and after the war, it was promoted as a healthier alternative to butter. Margarine was extremely popular in the US for a time (and there's still plenty of it in grocery stores). Among health conscious people, butter was looked on with suspicion as recently as 20 years or so ago. (I ran/run weekend hiking trips sometimes and 20 years ago, I would definitely have gotten dirty looks if I only bought butter. Today no one cares.) Crisco was pretty popular at one point in the US but AFAIK it's receded quite a bit. I don't do a lot of baking but I don't really see it in recipes these days. And lard is still not in mainstream use at all.

LeifCarrotson 7y ago
Health conscious people prefer margarine to butter on a hiking trip? Must be some pretty relaxed trips: Food is fuel, the more calories the better! I carry peanut butter and Crisco on my backpacking and canoeing trips...they're heavy, but nutritionally dense! A peanut butter jar might last you two months at home, but you can likely expect to be packing the empty jar out with you after a week in the woods.
- ghaff 7y ago
  Most people doing weekend trips don't suddenly abandon their day to day eating habits and start eating jars of peanut butter and mayonnaise. ADDED: That wasn't intended as snark but my observation is that most people on weekend dayhike trips or even multi-day backpacks maintain fairly conventional eating habits even if they're not energy/weight optimal. I certainly do.
- jdminhbg 7y ago
  The calories aren't the issue; as far as I know butter and margarine have about the same amount per serving. Margarine was preferred because it was thought that the saturated fat in butter was going to clog your arteries and kill you.
  - atomical 7y ago
    Saturated fat is bad for health. This is established science and your comment is science denial. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/fat/art-20045550 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h...
    - phonypc 7y ago
      It's not nearly that simple. And the person you're responding to didn't even actually deny that saturated fat is unhealthy, why jump on them like that? Needlessly inflammatory.

christkv 7y ago

You can find lard in Spain pretty easily some stores even have lard from ibérico style pigs with a much deeper flavor. I imagine most Southern Europe and Eastern Europe has easy access.

stefs 7y ago
used to cook a lot with lard in the last 5 years in austria, after discovering that many supermarkets stock it. right now i prefer clarified butter. the only vegetable oil in my pantry is pumpkin seed oil for salads. margarine is banned in my household; my mother used to use it but switched back to butter and lard in recent years.

gambiting 7y ago

There is absolutely zero issue buying lard in Poland. Literally any store will have some in fridges next to meat.

twic 7y ago
In a Polish restaurant, i had a starter of lard on bread - you get some slices of bread, and a pot of lard with little flecks of gherkin or something in it. I wasn't all that taken with it, i have to confess. But in Britain we do have, or once had, something distantly related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dripping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dripping https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/features/dripping-is-one-of-britains-forgotten-ingredients-now-its-making-a-timely-comeback-9800111.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/feat...
- projektir 7y ago
  > In a Polish restaurant, i had a starter of lard on bread This sounds like something they could do in Ukraine. Was the large a solid piece, or a spread? Eating solid pieces of pork fat is very normal in Ukraine.
  - twic 7y ago
    It was like a spread - i could scoop it up with a spoon, rather than having to slice it. I haven't had a chance to try to Ukrainian style solid fat!
    - arkades 7y ago
      Oh, it's a major thing. And it's delicious. You can pick it up in any Russian grocery on the east coast.
  - Mediterraneo10 7y ago
    Pork lard is eaten in the same way across Eastern Europe, not just in Poland or Ukraine, i.e. also in Hungary, Romania, the former Yugoslavia, and Russia and among Russians in Central Asia.

da_chicken 7y ago

> This story doesn't really explain what killed lard in Europe. It's NPR. It's an American news channel. It's not trying to detail the history of Europe. I don't mean to take this out on you because your comment is informative and interesting, but I'm really getting frustrated with this so often being the top comment's criticism on HN, or being the top responding criticism to the top comment on HN. Simply put, it's a Eurocentric criticism. It always reads like, "Why didn't this journalist consider Europe when they wrote this piece?" Perhaps it's different on European sites, but American sites don't bother contextualizing which nation they're talking about because the context is already self-evident to the primary Anglo American audience. News stories don't appear in English as a lingua franca; it's just the primary language. It's not that we don't care about Europe. It's just too far away. Europe just isn't the default American context. We don't qualify our journalism if it's only about America.

ska 7y ago
I think there is another way to read that comment. That lard is also unusual in Denmark, but the mechanisms being presented here don't really fit. In other words, there are other mechanisms at work, and perhaps that calls into question the narrative... Of course it could just be that they are different places.
- chrisdhoover 7y ago
  Thats how I read it. If they reason that lard went away in the US is not the same reason it went away in the EU, then what is the EU reason and does the EU reason cast doubt on the US reason.
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    The original comment makes it sound like lard was never really there to begin with in Europe, or at least Scandinavia. There was no "going away" in Europe, so nothing to really inform the hypothesis on it's fall in the US.
    - 7y ago

Aloha 7y ago

I always thought Dairy was more prominent in the Nordic countries, not much pig farming goes on there, I thought.

Bayart 7y ago

Interestingly enough what seems to have killed lard, at least the most common domestic use of it (making fries), in France and Belgium really is hydrogenated vegetal oil. Fries simply taste better. And it's also much worse for your health. Since it was commercialized just after WW2 and lard had been used as a butter substitute during the war there was a favourable context for it to happen. Lard is still used extensively in butcher shops as part of pork preparations (rillettes, grattons etc.). Mostly traditional/regional stuff.

thepangolino 7y ago
Hydrogenated vegetal oil comes nowhere near lard when it comes to taste for fries. I’m a Belgian talking so maybe I’m biased.
- gutnor 7y ago
  I think the argument is that animal fat is harder to maintain and more expensive than super-cheap "never" spoiling industrial fat ? BTW isn't beef fat used to make Belgian fries ? I agree with you though, traditional fries made with animal fat is in a league of its own. In the UK, you can find lard pretty much everywhere. The little Tesco express down the road will have some.
  - n-i-c-e 7y ago
    The lard you find in supermarkets is tasteless, hydrogenated dross, fit only for making soap. If you want actual lard, and you don't want to pay through the nose to get it from a specialty provider, you can visit your local butcher and ask for fat trimmings (tell him you're going to feed them to your dog if he has any misgivings) and render it yourself. It'll cost you next to nothing and it's extremely good for you. While you're there, pick up a few marrow bones too. And some offal. I get about 40% of my calories from lard/tallow, and I've never felt better.
    - gutnor 7y ago
      Living in London right now. Finding bone marrow, fat trimmings, or most of the cheap by-product of whole animal butchering is not as easily available even from a good local butcher. Some butcher still do, I manage to find some stuff in halal butcher and random butchers around town, but 40 min travel to find a bag of bone is not something you do past the exitement of the first time.

walshemj 7y ago

Lard is still sold in the UK - its what I use when I cook chips (fries) from scratch.

dr5penes 7y ago

Lard is in all major supermarkets in the UK.

mirimir 7y ago

So did margarine continue displacing butter after WWII? If TFA were generalized some, it would help explain what killed lard and butter in the US. The lard-to-Crisco and butter-to-margarine narratives have much in common. Different companies were involved, but it was all enabled by hydrogenation. And there were the same (now known to be bogus) health claims vs saturated fats. Health claims that were undoubtedly sourced, at least in part, by sellers of partially hydrogenated vegetable oils.

philwelch 7y ago
One of the biggest high-profile product launches of the 90's was for the margarine brand "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter!", which launched with a huge ad campaign featuring the then-faddishly-popular male model Fabio.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Sorry, I meant in Norway.
  - philwelch 7y ago
    Ah. My apologies.

scottlocklin 7y ago

> I often see Americans attempting to explain why things happen in their country by pointing to domestic events, with said events failing to account for an identical thing happening all over the world. I often see American colonies who labor under the delusion they have agency. Lard going away in Norway is much like Lysenkoism being popular in communist Poland.

ginko 7y ago

>The closest thing you can find to shortening in a Norwegian supermarket is coco fat You can get regular lard frozen at Meny.