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Ok, but to parent’s point... is it going to last? Is it yet another thing Google will abandon? Is it worth learning, because learning another language has a rea

Ok, but to parent’s point... is it going to last? Is it yet another thing Google will abandon? Is it worth learning, because learning another language has a real cost imo. If Google walks at any point, does Flutter or Dart survive? I’m with him, I want to like the idea, but I think the adoption has been slow and it doesn’t appear like it’s going to suddenly take off. I could be wrong, I just don’t see any successful indications yet.

pier25 8y ago
AFAIK Flutter will be the primary SDK for writing apps in Fuchsia. If this is true, and if the other rumors about Fuchsia replacing Android are also true, then I doubt Flutter and Dart are going anywhere.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Except if Google gets bored with Fuchsia, like it has with tons of projects. Heck, from what you say, it already got bored with Android -- if Fucshia is to replace it in say 2022, it means that Android just lasted around 15 years as a platform.
  - japanoise 8y ago
    15 years - so only four years less than MS-DOS ('81 - 2000) by which point it was considered hairy and terrible? I'm no big fan of Google, but 15 years is plenty long enough. And really, Android is definitely struggling and showing its age by this point.
    - bulldoa 8y ago
      Out of curiosity, why is android struggling? What aspect of it needs improvement?
    - cwyers 8y ago
      There is no sense in which MS-DOS died in 2000.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        I guess the parent means when (NT-Kernel based) Windows XP replaced Windows ME, which was the last version to run on top of MS-DOS (iirc).
      - japanoise 8y ago
        Wikipedia lists the last release of MS-DOS as version 8.0 in 2000, linking to the page for Windows ME. This is what the comments above were alluding to, a "final release" before the project is abandoned. Installations still continue, in the same way there's probably places still doing the books on a C64, but it's no longer supported.
    - Benjammer 8y ago
      >Android is definitely struggling and showing its age by this point I have the opposite viewpoint on this. I've worked on mobile the last 5 years or so, and dedicated native Android the last 2.5 years. The last year or two have been dramatic revolutions in the Android developer experience, from my perspective. Things like ConstraintLayout and full Kotlin support with ktx have opened up a new world for me compared to the state of the art several years ago. Then you look at companies like Peloton using large form-factor Android devices in their core products, and Samsung DEx using Android as a seamless mobile<->desktop computer. To me it seems like Android is just hitting it's stride. Who knows though, it's Google.
  - pier25 8y ago
    Android has plenty of issues and in the past 10-15 years Google has learned a lot from it and from Chrome OS. I think it makes sense that it would go back to the drawing board and try to make something better from scratch. Time will tell.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Not at all, Fuchsia has evolved for a pluggable UI via Scenic.
grayrest 8y ago
> is it going to last? Is it yet another thing Google will abandon? It's apparently the primary language for Google Ads. As such, I expect it to be maintained as long as Google continues to sell ads and if they do move away from it you'll have plenty of warning.
- Reedx 8y ago
  People keep saying that in Flutter threads, but it appears to be a small app for managing your ads? If it's just this, it wouldn't be hard to replace: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/google-ads/id1037457231?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/google-ads/id1037457231?mt=8 https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.adwords https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and... Via https://flutter.dev/showcase https://flutter.dev/showcase
  - skybrian 8y ago
    Not just mobile. Dart (though not Flutter) is also used by the AdWords web app, which is quite enormous. That said, Adwords used to be written in GWT. It's not impossible to migrate, but quite a big job.
    - moocowtruck 8y ago
      right but the money maker of adwords is not in dart at all, common lisp i think?
      - skybrian 8y ago
        I don't know what you mean? Google has many large ad customers who use the web UI to manage their campaigns. Common Lisp was rarely used at Google when I was there, though it's a big company and you do see a little of everything, sometimes due to acquisitions. You might be thinking of ITA software, which is (was?) used for airline reservations.
    - stephenr 8y ago
      So, dart is safe until google moves onto the next thing it invents. How’s GWT looking these days?
rubber_duck 8y ago
I think it got enough adoption so far that it's not going away overnight and should be usable since people already published apps with it. From my point of view learning Dart/Flutter isn't really a big investment so the downside of it getting abandoned soon is not as large as the payoff if it actually delivers - quality cross platform UI framework with great dev experience that I can use on my projects.

pier25 8y ago

AFAIK Flutter will be the primary SDK for writing apps in Fuchsia. If this is true, and if the other rumors about Fuchsia replacing Android are also true, then I doubt Flutter and Dart are going anywhere.

coldtea 8y ago
Except if Google gets bored with Fuchsia, like it has with tons of projects. Heck, from what you say, it already got bored with Android -- if Fucshia is to replace it in say 2022, it means that Android just lasted around 15 years as a platform.
- japanoise 8y ago
  15 years - so only four years less than MS-DOS ('81 - 2000) by which point it was considered hairy and terrible? I'm no big fan of Google, but 15 years is plenty long enough. And really, Android is definitely struggling and showing its age by this point.
  - bulldoa 8y ago
    Out of curiosity, why is android struggling? What aspect of it needs improvement?
  - cwyers 8y ago
    There is no sense in which MS-DOS died in 2000.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      I guess the parent means when (NT-Kernel based) Windows XP replaced Windows ME, which was the last version to run on top of MS-DOS (iirc).
    - japanoise 8y ago
      Wikipedia lists the last release of MS-DOS as version 8.0 in 2000, linking to the page for Windows ME. This is what the comments above were alluding to, a "final release" before the project is abandoned. Installations still continue, in the same way there's probably places still doing the books on a C64, but it's no longer supported.
  - Benjammer 8y ago
    >Android is definitely struggling and showing its age by this point I have the opposite viewpoint on this. I've worked on mobile the last 5 years or so, and dedicated native Android the last 2.5 years. The last year or two have been dramatic revolutions in the Android developer experience, from my perspective. Things like ConstraintLayout and full Kotlin support with ktx have opened up a new world for me compared to the state of the art several years ago. Then you look at companies like Peloton using large form-factor Android devices in their core products, and Samsung DEx using Android as a seamless mobile<->desktop computer. To me it seems like Android is just hitting it's stride. Who knows though, it's Google.
- pier25 8y ago
  Android has plenty of issues and in the past 10-15 years Google has learned a lot from it and from Chrome OS. I think it makes sense that it would go back to the drawing board and try to make something better from scratch. Time will tell.
pjmlp 8y ago
Not at all, Fuchsia has evolved for a pluggable UI via Scenic.

grayrest 8y ago

> is it going to last? Is it yet another thing Google will abandon? It's apparently the primary language for Google Ads. As such, I expect it to be maintained as long as Google continues to sell ads and if they do move away from it you'll have plenty of warning.

Reedx 8y ago
People keep saying that in Flutter threads, but it appears to be a small app for managing your ads? If it's just this, it wouldn't be hard to replace: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/google-ads/id1037457231?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/google-ads/id1037457231?mt=8 https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.adwords https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and... Via https://flutter.dev/showcase https://flutter.dev/showcase
- skybrian 8y ago
  Not just mobile. Dart (though not Flutter) is also used by the AdWords web app, which is quite enormous. That said, Adwords used to be written in GWT. It's not impossible to migrate, but quite a big job.
  - moocowtruck 8y ago
    right but the money maker of adwords is not in dart at all, common lisp i think?
    - skybrian 8y ago
      I don't know what you mean? Google has many large ad customers who use the web UI to manage their campaigns. Common Lisp was rarely used at Google when I was there, though it's a big company and you do see a little of everything, sometimes due to acquisitions. You might be thinking of ITA software, which is (was?) used for airline reservations.
  - stephenr 8y ago
    So, dart is safe until google moves onto the next thing it invents. How’s GWT looking these days?

rubber_duck 8y ago

I think it got enough adoption so far that it's not going away overnight and should be usable since people already published apps with it. From my point of view learning Dart/Flutter isn't really a big investment so the downside of it getting abandoned soon is not as large as the payoff if it actually delivers - quality cross platform UI framework with great dev experience that I can use on my projects.