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Just s/Islamic/Jewish/ and repeat things back and see how they sound. We've been here before.

0815test 8y ago
So we should focus on "how things sound", to the exclusion of any judgment about the actual facts on the ground? That can't be right. Culture matters, even many left-wingers will agree about this. Muslim cultures, by and large (there are of course all sorts of exceptions, among which Malaysia is especially notable) have rather specific problems with the values and norms that are commonly enforced there, that aren't even related to the religion of Islam per se. And Scruton is clearly aware of this, so by disregarding these things you're essentially misrepresenting his actual views.
- barrkel 8y ago
  They said the same thing about Catholics, you know. I find it fucking outrageous that you think it's acceptable to demonize a group like that.
  - 0815test 8y ago
    They said the same things about Catholics, yes, back in the early 1600s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot - but then Catholics changed, and for the better. They quit burning witches and heretics, quit doing the war-of-religion thing, began actively tolerating their Protestant neighbors, and so on and so forth. It's not like I'm trying to demonize anyone, but how do you assimilate a bunch of people whose whole shared cultural milieu is trying to hold them back to the worst parts of the Middle Ages? It's not an easy problem. Demonizing them all and looking for scapegoats would be the easy thing to do, actually - the paradox of tolerance is a thing after all. Can we do better? I think that's a worthwhile question to ask, while ignoring the issue altogether is totally useless and unproductive.
  - yellowapple 8y ago
    Criticism != demonization, you know. I find it fucking outrageous that you think they're equivalent.
- dang 8y ago
  That borders on religious flamewar. Please don't take HN threads in that direction, whence nothing good can come.
MockObject 8y ago
Yet when people offer s/white/black, or s/men/women, they're usually advised that their tears are delicious, false equivalency, or that they need to consider historical contexts. So the substitution argument is no longer recognized in polite society.

So we should focus on "how things sound", to the exclusion of any judgment about the actual facts on the ground? That can't be right. Culture matters, even many left-wingers will agree about this. Muslim cultures, by and large (there are of course all sorts of exceptions, among which Malaysia is especially notable) have rather specific problems with the values and norms that are commonly enforced there, that aren't even related to the religion of Islam per se. And Scruton is clearly aware of this, so by disregarding these things you're essentially misrepresenting his actual views.

barrkel 8y ago
They said the same thing about Catholics, you know. I find it fucking outrageous that you think it's acceptable to demonize a group like that.
- 0815test 8y ago
  They said the same things about Catholics, yes, back in the early 1600s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot - but then Catholics changed, and for the better. They quit burning witches and heretics, quit doing the war-of-religion thing, began actively tolerating their Protestant neighbors, and so on and so forth. It's not like I'm trying to demonize anyone, but how do you assimilate a bunch of people whose whole shared cultural milieu is trying to hold them back to the worst parts of the Middle Ages? It's not an easy problem. Demonizing them all and looking for scapegoats would be the easy thing to do, actually - the paradox of tolerance is a thing after all. Can we do better? I think that's a worthwhile question to ask, while ignoring the issue altogether is totally useless and unproductive.
- yellowapple 8y ago
  Criticism != demonization, you know. I find it fucking outrageous that you think they're equivalent.
dang 8y ago
That borders on religious flamewar. Please don't take HN threads in that direction, whence nothing good can come.

MockObject 8y ago

Yet when people offer s/white/black, or s/men/women, they're usually advised that their tears are delicious, false equivalency, or that they need to consider historical contexts. So the substitution argument is no longer recognized in polite society.