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For balance, bearing mind the Spectator is strongly partisan, I'm providing a left-wing newspaper's account of the same situation [0] and George Eaton's own une

For balance, bearing mind the Spectator is strongly partisan, I'm providing a left-wing newspaper's account of the same situation [0] and George Eaton's own unequivocal apology over the way he used social media ("a serious error of judgement which I profoundly regret") [1]. I don't think either side is fairly representing the situation, I think it's most probable that Scruton probably is a racist old homophobe and Eaton probably is a manipulative, cocky little twat. But at least he apologized, which is pretty rare in these tiresome mud-slinging situations. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/21/david-lammy-roger-scruton-rush-damn-our-opponents https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/21/david-... [1] https://www.newstatesman.com/2019/04/my-interview-roger-scruton https://www.newstatesman.com/2019/04/my-interview-roger-scru...

0815test 7y ago
That article from the Grauniad is saying very little that's directly relevant, except for a claim that Hungarians should not be concerned about people from Muslim cultures immigrating there, and potentially being less-than-loyal to their surrounding society. That would seem to be a matter of opinion, at the very least. Hardly something that we should "call out" Scruton on, much less use as a pretext to fabricate fake news about Scruton's quite nuanced views on this and other matters.
- barrkel 7y ago
  Just s/Islamic/Jewish/ and repeat things back and see how they sound. We've been here before.
  - 0815test 7y ago
    So we should focus on "how things sound", to the exclusion of any judgment about the actual facts on the ground? That can't be right. Culture matters, even many left-wingers will agree about this. Muslim cultures, by and large (there are of course all sorts of exceptions, among which Malaysia is especially notable) have rather specific problems with the values and norms that are commonly enforced there, that aren't even related to the religion of Islam per se. And Scruton is clearly aware of this, so by disregarding these things you're essentially misrepresenting his actual views.
    - barrkel 7y ago
      They said the same thing about Catholics, you know. I find it fucking outrageous that you think it's acceptable to demonize a group like that.
      - 0815test 7y ago
        They said the same things about Catholics, yes, back in the early 1600s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot - but then Catholics changed, and for the better. They quit burning witches and heretics, quit doing the war-of-religion thing, began actively tolerating their Protestant neighbors, and so on and so forth. It's not like I'm trying to demonize anyone, but how do you assimilate a bunch of people whose whole shared cultural milieu is trying to hold them back to the worst parts of the Middle Ages? It's not an easy problem. Demonizing them all and looking for scapegoats would be the easy thing to do, actually - the paradox of tolerance is a thing after all. Can we do better? I think that's a worthwhile question to ask, while ignoring the issue altogether is totally useless and unproductive.
      - yellowapple 7y ago
        Criticism != demonization, you know. I find it fucking outrageous that you think they're equivalent.
    - dang 7y ago
      That borders on religious flamewar. Please don't take HN threads in that direction, whence nothing good can come.
  - MockObject 7y ago
    Yet when people offer s/white/black, or s/men/women, they're usually advised that their tears are delicious, false equivalency, or that they need to consider historical contexts. So the substitution argument is no longer recognized in polite society.

0815test 7y ago

That article from the Grauniad is saying very little that's directly relevant, except for a claim that Hungarians should not be concerned about people from Muslim cultures immigrating there, and potentially being less-than-loyal to their surrounding society. That would seem to be a matter of opinion, at the very least. Hardly something that we should "call out" Scruton on, much less use as a pretext to fabricate fake news about Scruton's quite nuanced views on this and other matters.

barrkel 7y ago
Just s/Islamic/Jewish/ and repeat things back and see how they sound. We've been here before.
- 0815test 7y ago
  So we should focus on "how things sound", to the exclusion of any judgment about the actual facts on the ground? That can't be right. Culture matters, even many left-wingers will agree about this. Muslim cultures, by and large (there are of course all sorts of exceptions, among which Malaysia is especially notable) have rather specific problems with the values and norms that are commonly enforced there, that aren't even related to the religion of Islam per se. And Scruton is clearly aware of this, so by disregarding these things you're essentially misrepresenting his actual views.
  - barrkel 7y ago
    They said the same thing about Catholics, you know. I find it fucking outrageous that you think it's acceptable to demonize a group like that.
    - 0815test 7y ago
      They said the same things about Catholics, yes, back in the early 1600s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot - but then Catholics changed, and for the better. They quit burning witches and heretics, quit doing the war-of-religion thing, began actively tolerating their Protestant neighbors, and so on and so forth. It's not like I'm trying to demonize anyone, but how do you assimilate a bunch of people whose whole shared cultural milieu is trying to hold them back to the worst parts of the Middle Ages? It's not an easy problem. Demonizing them all and looking for scapegoats would be the easy thing to do, actually - the paradox of tolerance is a thing after all. Can we do better? I think that's a worthwhile question to ask, while ignoring the issue altogether is totally useless and unproductive.
    - yellowapple 7y ago
      Criticism != demonization, you know. I find it fucking outrageous that you think they're equivalent.
  - dang 7y ago
    That borders on religious flamewar. Please don't take HN threads in that direction, whence nothing good can come.
- MockObject 7y ago
  Yet when people offer s/white/black, or s/men/women, they're usually advised that their tears are delicious, false equivalency, or that they need to consider historical contexts. So the substitution argument is no longer recognized in polite society.