5 ms·

> the fact that my carrier refuses to stay on top of updates for my device anyway. I don't get why the carrier has to be involved at all. It has nothing to do

by Aaargh20318 8y ago

> the fact that my carrier refuses to stay on top of updates for my device anyway. I don't get why the carrier has to be involved at all. It has nothing to do with them at all so why do they even get a say in when a phone gets an update ?

rcarmo 8y ago
As someone who spent the better part of two decades at a carrier (I joined as an acqui-hire to build an ISP), I've always been fascinated by the amount of crap carriers insist on having pre-loaded (and kept working) in device firmwares. Carriers want (demand, even) that their online portals, customer support apps and (most importantly) ringtone shops be pre-loaded on devices, and have always tied that to critical firmware drops for network defaults, radio compatibility testing, and a lot of other (truly critical) functionality that only actually exists on the device's radio baseband and has zero to do with the handset OS these days. Source: I was one of the program managers for the flying circus that was Vodafone 360, when we tried to work with Samsung to build a vertically integrated handset like the iPhone. This sank (mercifully) without a trace, and to this day I summarise what happened by explaining that Samsung actually had two engineering v-teams: the Galaxy team and... everyone else. And we got everyone else. It doesn't excuse a lot of what was decided, but it was instrumental in killing the service.
- grumpy-cowboy 8y ago
  They will not be able to force their crap in my future Librem 5 phone.
  - rcarmo 8y ago
    I appreciate the independent thinking behind this comment, but seriously, what completely broke the carrier model was the iPhone. When we started discussing customisation with Apple, all they ever allowed us to do was add a default bookmark to Safari. Period. Finito. Looking back, that was the sanest thing any handset manufacturer ever did for the entire industry.
    - JustSomeNobody 8y ago
      That and that carrier logo in the status bar, yes? I mean why else would AT&T get to display fake 5G up there now? Edit: Name, not logo
      - rcarmo 8y ago
        That always had the carrier name (it's associated with the MCC/MNC IDs). I don't recall logos, but it's likely that they would follow suit some day, and AT&T has a very long history with Apple, so...
    - inetknght 8y ago
      Kudos to Apple for that.
    - Starknaked 8y ago
      How did carriers incentivise customisation for manufacturers? Did Apple essentially turn down "easy money" to maintain product integrity?
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Apple’s m.o. early on was a take it or leave approach with the carriers. Usually the largest carrier in a market would refuse their demands but a smaller carrier would acquiesce. Then the larger carrier would start losing customers since they didn’t have the iPhone and they would come to the table.
      - rcarmo 8y ago
        What do you mean by incentivise? Either manufacturers delivered custom firmware or they carriers didn’t sell their devices, period. Apple changed all that.
        Starknaked 8y ago
        I see. That makes sense if you upgrade/buy through your carrier. That isn't something I've ever done so my carrier has never been a limitation on the phones I can get. I guess Apple made the carriers realise that everyone will get the phone they want with or without them in the purchasing cycle.
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
Dumb pipes. They fear becoming a dumb pipe. They will get their hands into anything and everything simply to make sure they're not just a dumb pipe.
- everybodyknows 8y ago
  Dumb pipe ~= Commoditized complement https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17047348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17047348
hopler 8y ago
Carrier is involved only if the carrier "manufactured" and sold you the device. Your choice. This is why Android moved as much as possible to the core Google Play services app instead of the OS.

rcarmo 8y ago

As someone who spent the better part of two decades at a carrier (I joined as an acqui-hire to build an ISP), I've always been fascinated by the amount of crap carriers insist on having pre-loaded (and kept working) in device firmwares. Carriers want (demand, even) that their online portals, customer support apps and (most importantly) ringtone shops be pre-loaded on devices, and have always tied that to critical firmware drops for network defaults, radio compatibility testing, and a lot of other (truly critical) functionality that only actually exists on the device's radio baseband and has zero to do with the handset OS these days. Source: I was one of the program managers for the flying circus that was Vodafone 360, when we tried to work with Samsung to build a vertically integrated handset like the iPhone. This sank (mercifully) without a trace, and to this day I summarise what happened by explaining that Samsung actually had two engineering v-teams: the Galaxy team and... everyone else. And we got everyone else. It doesn't excuse a lot of what was decided, but it was instrumental in killing the service.

grumpy-cowboy 8y ago
They will not be able to force their crap in my future Librem 5 phone.
- rcarmo 8y ago
  I appreciate the independent thinking behind this comment, but seriously, what completely broke the carrier model was the iPhone. When we started discussing customisation with Apple, all they ever allowed us to do was add a default bookmark to Safari. Period. Finito. Looking back, that was the sanest thing any handset manufacturer ever did for the entire industry.
  - JustSomeNobody 8y ago
    That and that carrier logo in the status bar, yes? I mean why else would AT&T get to display fake 5G up there now? Edit: Name, not logo
    - rcarmo 8y ago
      That always had the carrier name (it's associated with the MCC/MNC IDs). I don't recall logos, but it's likely that they would follow suit some day, and AT&T has a very long history with Apple, so...
  - inetknght 8y ago
    Kudos to Apple for that.
  - Starknaked 8y ago
    How did carriers incentivise customisation for manufacturers? Did Apple essentially turn down "easy money" to maintain product integrity?
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Apple’s m.o. early on was a take it or leave approach with the carriers. Usually the largest carrier in a market would refuse their demands but a smaller carrier would acquiesce. Then the larger carrier would start losing customers since they didn’t have the iPhone and they would come to the table.
    - rcarmo 8y ago
      What do you mean by incentivise? Either manufacturers delivered custom firmware or they carriers didn’t sell their devices, period. Apple changed all that.
      - Starknaked 8y ago
        I see. That makes sense if you upgrade/buy through your carrier. That isn't something I've ever done so my carrier has never been a limitation on the phones I can get. I guess Apple made the carriers realise that everyone will get the phone they want with or without them in the purchasing cycle.

JustSomeNobody 8y ago

Dumb pipes. They fear becoming a dumb pipe. They will get their hands into anything and everything simply to make sure they're not just a dumb pipe.

everybodyknows 8y ago
Dumb pipe ~= Commoditized complement https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17047348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17047348

hopler 8y ago

Carrier is involved only if the carrier "manufactured" and sold you the device. Your choice. This is why Android moved as much as possible to the core Google Play services app instead of the OS.