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Sure Tesla can make good cars, but not if it has to sell them at a profit. Over the lifetime of Tesla, each car has been subsidized by like 10k from shareholder

Sure Tesla can make good cars, but not if it has to sell them at a profit. Over the lifetime of Tesla, each car has been subsidized by like 10k from shareholders and 7.5k from government. Both subsidies are going away as we speak.

jsight 8y ago
That is really not true. Each individual car is sold for more than the cost of manufacturer. Statistics like this tend to take fixed costs and historical costs into account in a way that shouldn't be divided by unit volume. I caution you to read more about this, as you see statistics like this quoted often in the press. It is almost always an indicator of issues with article quality.
lonnyk 8y ago
I read earlier that model 3s had. 20% gross margin. I’m happy to find the source again if you’re interested, but I'd also love to see your source.
- sokoloff 8y ago
  When considering whether a fleet of cars has been profitable, you can’t consider only the gross margin (which excludes certain company fixed costs to arrive at an answer to “was that last car we made profitable?”) but must also consider overall profitability (“did we make money doing all of the things we did?”) Tesla’s answer to the second is “no” for substantially all of the company history.
  - sliken 8y ago
    Agreed. The are using gross margin to fuel crazy growth. Much like Amazon. Tesla went from 0 2012 to #1 in 2018 in the premium segment. Certainly looks like if they stopped expanding at a crazy rate that they would collect profits at a very healthy rate. I'm sure just about everyone in the premium segment would love to "fail" by selling 63,000 cars costing over $50k each with gross margin of 20%.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Tesla doesn't make good cars. They make unremarkable cars with good drive-trains. It's like the EV version of FCA's ~700hp offerings. Sure the interior and build quality are kind of crap for what you pay but with 700 ponies on tap you don't care.
- leesec 8y ago
  This is a joke right? They make some of the most highly regarded cars of all time. Recently buying one and showing it off almost every single person (30~) was blown away at how much better it was then their car and wanted one in the future. Tesla has many problems but making bad cars isn't one of them, these things are awesome.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    No it's not a joke. The Model 3 and Model S have relatively high NVH and a relatively cheap feeling interior compared to vehicles of the same class and price point. You're paying German car money but it goes to the drive-train instead of the "luxury German driving machine" experience. There's nothing wrong with that but to talk up Tesla's vehicles as though they're luxury cars is foolish.
    - leesec 8y ago
      Yeah thanks for explaining it to me, I own one. I personally couldn't care less about the interior but I understand some people do. The driving/overall experience to me is night and day when compared to ICE vehicles or even other EV competitors.
    - jsight 8y ago
      I just can't agree with that on the model 3. The model 3 is basically BM 3 series money, and there is nothing particularly phenomenal about the BMW 3 series from a luxury standpoint.
      - spamizbad 8y ago
Radzell 8y ago
Sandy Munroe A guy who rip appart cars proved this wrong a while ago. The Tesla M3 only takes 25k to build with parts and labors.

jsight 8y ago

That is really not true. Each individual car is sold for more than the cost of manufacturer. Statistics like this tend to take fixed costs and historical costs into account in a way that shouldn't be divided by unit volume. I caution you to read more about this, as you see statistics like this quoted often in the press. It is almost always an indicator of issues with article quality.

lonnyk 8y ago

I read earlier that model 3s had. 20% gross margin. I’m happy to find the source again if you’re interested, but I'd also love to see your source.

sokoloff 8y ago
When considering whether a fleet of cars has been profitable, you can’t consider only the gross margin (which excludes certain company fixed costs to arrive at an answer to “was that last car we made profitable?”) but must also consider overall profitability (“did we make money doing all of the things we did?”) Tesla’s answer to the second is “no” for substantially all of the company history.
- sliken 8y ago
  Agreed. The are using gross margin to fuel crazy growth. Much like Amazon. Tesla went from 0 2012 to #1 in 2018 in the premium segment. Certainly looks like if they stopped expanding at a crazy rate that they would collect profits at a very healthy rate. I'm sure just about everyone in the premium segment would love to "fail" by selling 63,000 cars costing over $50k each with gross margin of 20%.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

Tesla doesn't make good cars. They make unremarkable cars with good drive-trains. It's like the EV version of FCA's ~700hp offerings. Sure the interior and build quality are kind of crap for what you pay but with 700 ponies on tap you don't care.

leesec 8y ago
This is a joke right? They make some of the most highly regarded cars of all time. Recently buying one and showing it off almost every single person (30~) was blown away at how much better it was then their car and wanted one in the future. Tesla has many problems but making bad cars isn't one of them, these things are awesome.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  No it's not a joke. The Model 3 and Model S have relatively high NVH and a relatively cheap feeling interior compared to vehicles of the same class and price point. You're paying German car money but it goes to the drive-train instead of the "luxury German driving machine" experience. There's nothing wrong with that but to talk up Tesla's vehicles as though they're luxury cars is foolish.
  - leesec 8y ago
    Yeah thanks for explaining it to me, I own one. I personally couldn't care less about the interior but I understand some people do. The driving/overall experience to me is night and day when compared to ICE vehicles or even other EV competitors.
  - jsight 8y ago
    I just can't agree with that on the model 3. The model 3 is basically BM 3 series money, and there is nothing particularly phenomenal about the BMW 3 series from a luxury standpoint.
    - spamizbad 8y ago

Radzell 8y ago

Sandy Munroe A guy who rip appart cars proved this wrong a while ago. The Tesla M3 only takes 25k to build with parts and labors.