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I fundamentally disagree with Mozillas notion of "openness". The internet always was open to LGBTQI+ people. The internet does not discriminate. Get an account

I fundamentally disagree with Mozillas notion of "openness". The internet always was open to LGBTQI+ people. The internet does not discriminate. Get an account named X. Done. Problems only arise when professional activists try to change existing communities. E.g. the new linux kernel code of conduct and it's, let's say "questionable", author.

rage-factor 7y ago
But that wouldn't feed the rage factor. We need people sufficiently angry, to divide the world. In order to stoke the flames of anger, you need an unquenchable holy war, and crusaders unleashed into to fray for suicide attacks. You can't accomplish those goals by saying everything's fine. The two minute hate finds its origins in a fear of persecution. Find the minorities and radicalize them with a fear of alienation. BE AFRAID. BE VERY AFRAID.
DanBC 7y ago
> The internet does not discriminate. Get an account named X. We don't discriminate against you, but you have to hide every aspect of who you are otherwise we're going to threaten to rape you to death.
- rape-rape-rape 7y ago
  I'm beyond the point of wrapping my words in a cushion that's laser sculpted to fit your ears. I'm just going to dump the words I want into yet another text field, and call it a day. You know why? Because it isn't a violent crime and we're probably thousands of miles away from one another.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- otabdeveloper1 7y ago
  Non-discrimination and acceptance isn't the same thing. You can't force people to like you, and you shouldn't.
  - Ensorceled 7y ago
    Do you really believe explicit, credible death and/or rape threats for being a woman with opinions on Marvel movies or games or being LGBQ are examples of a non-discriminatory environment?
    - Phenix88be 7y ago
      Internet is a tool to communicate freely and regardless of the message. Internet isn't "people". If someone harass you with your phone, you don't blame the phone, you blame the harasser. The phone is fine.
      - mtberatwork 7y ago
        The murkiness is that the tool shields the harasser from any sort of consequences that would occur if the exchange happened in the physical world.
        Phenix88be 7y ago
        The same way journalist and activist are protected. Should you blame the mailman if he deliver some harassing anonymous letter ? The physical mail offer the same sort of protection if it's done properly.
        woodruffw 7y ago
        If someone harassed me with anonymous letters, I would open a police report. The point is that no equivalent recourse exists online. Edit: The point being that the mailman is a red herring. If the internet is really an extension of public space as (presumably) claimed, let's treat it like one.
        Phenix88be 7y ago
        > If someone harassed me with anonymous letters, I would open a police report. In my country, I can open a police report for online harassment.
- rape-U2-death 7y ago
  Empty threats at best. The reality is that words, words, words on the internet are only worth so much. Meanwhile, IRL it's much more likely to wind up in jail mostly by virtue of having a penis, than it is to ever get brutally raped by a total stranger. Internet or not. And then there's that whole thing about man ass rape in prison, which is basically laughed at. So who's really getting victimized by society.
- mindslight 7y ago
  As somebody who wants to hide every aspect of who I am regardless, I don't find this a particularly compelling argument. I'll admit it's easy for me to say, but I'm less concerned about receiving stateless baseless threats than to have my entire life cataloged and foreseen by surveillance machines. I suspect this is a big part of the divide between the old guard "nobody knows you're a dog" and the new "broadcast your identity". I turn to the Internet to not be participating in the monkeysphere. Any trace I leave behind is due to laziness rather than intent. I do have to wonder how much this is just inevitable "normie" human behavior, and how much it has been stoked by companies pushing realname policies and profile selfies.
- dang 7y ago
  Anyone threatening other users here would soon get banned. You surely know that as well as anyone. Would you please stop upping the inflammation like this in HN comments? You've been doing it a lot, and we've been cutting you a lot of slack because you've been a good contributor over the years, but this is not cool, and I can feel my roll of slack running out. If your taste for ideological warfare is growing, please gratify it elsewhere, not here. This comment violates numerous site guidelines, including: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." "Eschew flamebait." "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - DanBC 7y ago
    There are women who post to HN but who hide the fact that they're women, because of the attitudes displayed in this thread. There are a bunch of women who don't post to HN at all. I'll dial it back a bit, but you need to regain control from the misogynists who are making this place hostile to others. Parent post is literally telling women not to identify as women, yet you didn't say anything to them. Respectfully, you need better aim.
    - dang 7y ago
      If you're concerned about that, you need to stop pumping aggression into this place, by which you're contributing to making it more hostile and less safe. A war zone can never be safe and welcoming. First stop making HN more of a war zone (which you've done a lot over the years, routinely calling people cunts and all the rest of it—which as I said, we've cut you a ton of slack for when we would have banned others), and we'll be interested in your ideas about how to make HN less hostile to others.
pmlnr 7y ago
On IRC still nobody knows you're a dog. Nobody cares. What write is what matters.
ForHackernews 7y ago
It's really ironic to see HN posters staking out bold claims about the value of totally "uncensored" platforms...in a thread with dozens of dead, hidden comments, on a message board subject to heavy-handed, arbitrary and unaccountable moderation.
- chasd00 7y ago
  Moderation isn't really censorship IMO, if a comment was deleted that would be censorship. Or, if you were prevented from reading downvoted comments then I would qualify that as censorship as well. It's subjective in some ways which makes the discussion complicated.
  - ForHackernews 7y ago
    HN moderators absolutely remove comments and threads.
    - Mirioron 7y ago
      Sure, but HN isn't a large part of the internet. Wanting some uncensored places doesn't mean there shouldn't be curated places.
    - chasd00 7y ago
      that qualifies as censorship in my book.
    - dang 7y ago
      That's a slippery statement to respond to because "remove" can mean a lot of different things. chasd00 used the clearer word "deleted", which is actually precisely what we don't do. I can think of four removeyish things that happen to comments and threads: (1) downweighting of rank; (2) collapsing by default; (3) killing (marking [dead]); (4) deleting altogether. Moderators and software do the first three. We never do #4, except when the author asks us to, or—exceedingly rarely—when our attorneys tell us we have to (less than half a dozen times in ten years, and we push to avoid it, except one time when an HN user was exposed). In cases 1, 2, and 3, nothing is deleted. Anybody can still read everything if they want to. They can read #1 by scrolling; #2 by expanding a subthread; #3 by setting "showdead" to "yes" in their profile. Are those removal? censorship? Sure, if you like—people use those words to express a feeling. But deletion, in the sense of "you used to be able to read something but now you can't", is a question not of feeling but of fact, and the fact is we don't do that.
anon1000 7y ago
A lot of the problems came about when sites began mandating "Real Names". People began to assume that online is somehow analogous to real life (it isn't). Combined with the nonsense claim that "hateful/rude/unpleasant speech and violence are the same", we're hurtling down a dangerous path.

rage-factor 7y ago

But that wouldn't feed the rage factor. We need people sufficiently angry, to divide the world. In order to stoke the flames of anger, you need an unquenchable holy war, and crusaders unleashed into to fray for suicide attacks. You can't accomplish those goals by saying everything's fine. The two minute hate finds its origins in a fear of persecution. Find the minorities and radicalize them with a fear of alienation. BE AFRAID. BE VERY AFRAID.

DanBC 7y ago

> The internet does not discriminate. Get an account named X. We don't discriminate against you, but you have to hide every aspect of who you are otherwise we're going to threaten to rape you to death.

rape-rape-rape 7y ago
I'm beyond the point of wrapping my words in a cushion that's laser sculpted to fit your ears. I'm just going to dump the words I want into yet another text field, and call it a day. You know why? Because it isn't a violent crime and we're probably thousands of miles away from one another.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
otabdeveloper1 7y ago
Non-discrimination and acceptance isn't the same thing. You can't force people to like you, and you shouldn't.
- Ensorceled 7y ago
  Do you really believe explicit, credible death and/or rape threats for being a woman with opinions on Marvel movies or games or being LGBQ are examples of a non-discriminatory environment?
  - Phenix88be 7y ago
    Internet is a tool to communicate freely and regardless of the message. Internet isn't "people". If someone harass you with your phone, you don't blame the phone, you blame the harasser. The phone is fine.
    - mtberatwork 7y ago
      The murkiness is that the tool shields the harasser from any sort of consequences that would occur if the exchange happened in the physical world.
      - Phenix88be 7y ago
        The same way journalist and activist are protected. Should you blame the mailman if he deliver some harassing anonymous letter ? The physical mail offer the same sort of protection if it's done properly.
        woodruffw 7y ago
        If someone harassed me with anonymous letters, I would open a police report. The point is that no equivalent recourse exists online. Edit: The point being that the mailman is a red herring. If the internet is really an extension of public space as (presumably) claimed, let's treat it like one.
        Phenix88be 7y ago
        > If someone harassed me with anonymous letters, I would open a police report. In my country, I can open a police report for online harassment.
rape-U2-death 7y ago
Empty threats at best. The reality is that words, words, words on the internet are only worth so much. Meanwhile, IRL it's much more likely to wind up in jail mostly by virtue of having a penis, than it is to ever get brutally raped by a total stranger. Internet or not. And then there's that whole thing about man ass rape in prison, which is basically laughed at. So who's really getting victimized by society.
mindslight 7y ago
As somebody who wants to hide every aspect of who I am regardless, I don't find this a particularly compelling argument. I'll admit it's easy for me to say, but I'm less concerned about receiving stateless baseless threats than to have my entire life cataloged and foreseen by surveillance machines. I suspect this is a big part of the divide between the old guard "nobody knows you're a dog" and the new "broadcast your identity". I turn to the Internet to not be participating in the monkeysphere. Any trace I leave behind is due to laziness rather than intent. I do have to wonder how much this is just inevitable "normie" human behavior, and how much it has been stoked by companies pushing realname policies and profile selfies.
dang 7y ago
Anyone threatening other users here would soon get banned. You surely know that as well as anyone. Would you please stop upping the inflammation like this in HN comments? You've been doing it a lot, and we've been cutting you a lot of slack because you've been a good contributor over the years, but this is not cool, and I can feel my roll of slack running out. If your taste for ideological warfare is growing, please gratify it elsewhere, not here. This comment violates numerous site guidelines, including: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." "Eschew flamebait." "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- DanBC 7y ago
  There are women who post to HN but who hide the fact that they're women, because of the attitudes displayed in this thread. There are a bunch of women who don't post to HN at all. I'll dial it back a bit, but you need to regain control from the misogynists who are making this place hostile to others. Parent post is literally telling women not to identify as women, yet you didn't say anything to them. Respectfully, you need better aim.
  - dang 7y ago
    If you're concerned about that, you need to stop pumping aggression into this place, by which you're contributing to making it more hostile and less safe. A war zone can never be safe and welcoming. First stop making HN more of a war zone (which you've done a lot over the years, routinely calling people cunts and all the rest of it—which as I said, we've cut you a ton of slack for when we would have banned others), and we'll be interested in your ideas about how to make HN less hostile to others.

pmlnr 7y ago

On IRC still nobody knows you're a dog. Nobody cares. What write is what matters.

ForHackernews 7y ago

It's really ironic to see HN posters staking out bold claims about the value of totally "uncensored" platforms...in a thread with dozens of dead, hidden comments, on a message board subject to heavy-handed, arbitrary and unaccountable moderation.

chasd00 7y ago
Moderation isn't really censorship IMO, if a comment was deleted that would be censorship. Or, if you were prevented from reading downvoted comments then I would qualify that as censorship as well. It's subjective in some ways which makes the discussion complicated.
- ForHackernews 7y ago
  HN moderators absolutely remove comments and threads.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    Sure, but HN isn't a large part of the internet. Wanting some uncensored places doesn't mean there shouldn't be curated places.
  - chasd00 7y ago
    that qualifies as censorship in my book.
  - dang 7y ago
    That's a slippery statement to respond to because "remove" can mean a lot of different things. chasd00 used the clearer word "deleted", which is actually precisely what we don't do. I can think of four removeyish things that happen to comments and threads: (1) downweighting of rank; (2) collapsing by default; (3) killing (marking [dead]); (4) deleting altogether. Moderators and software do the first three. We never do #4, except when the author asks us to, or—exceedingly rarely—when our attorneys tell us we have to (less than half a dozen times in ten years, and we push to avoid it, except one time when an HN user was exposed). In cases 1, 2, and 3, nothing is deleted. Anybody can still read everything if they want to. They can read #1 by scrolling; #2 by expanding a subthread; #3 by setting "showdead" to "yes" in their profile. Are those removal? censorship? Sure, if you like—people use those words to express a feeling. But deletion, in the sense of "you used to be able to read something but now you can't", is a question not of feeling but of fact, and the fact is we don't do that.

anon1000 7y ago

A lot of the problems came about when sites began mandating "Real Names". People began to assume that online is somehow analogous to real life (it isn't). Combined with the nonsense claim that "hateful/rude/unpleasant speech and violence are the same", we're hurtling down a dangerous path.