7 ms·

EV are still too expensive and Tesla ridiculously so. That’s not a problem if you can’t keep up with demand, but competition creeps up. Why would you buy a Tes

by jaabe 7y ago

EV are still too expensive and Tesla ridiculously so. That’s not a problem if you can’t keep up with demand, but competition creeps up. Why would you buy a Tesla when you can buy a Hyundai Kona for a lot less? We need better leadership though. I live in Denmark where EVs aren’t very widespread because of taxes. In Norway more than half of new vehicles sold are EV. Norway has more money than us, but they didn’t really need it for this transition and nothing they did are things we couldn’t have. They simply had better political leadership than we do. I know some Americans might call free market, but we have 150 years of history to show that big advances in society are driven mainly by the public sector if they are to benefit all and happen quickly.

_ph_ 7y ago
First of all, you basically cannot buy a Hyundai. The production is far below Model 3 levels. Here in Germany, you are looking at 12 months wait time due to demand far exceeding supply. Also, the Model 3 is a very attractive offering. It is the faster car, aims at the typical BMW audience, and most of all, has the supercharger network available.
- neuronic 7y ago
  As another German I can definitely tell you that no one here sees a Model 3 at anywhere near a BMW in production quality. If Tesla intends to market the Model 3 at the "BMW audience" - whatever differentiates them from, say, the "Audi audience" - they are horribly miscalculating at what German people expect from a car. It is not limited to EV range. Also, Volkswagen is ramping up production on their Modular Electric Drive Matrix (MEB) [1] and within 2-3 years cars with this technology will hit the market. I wonder if Tesla can keep up when Volkswagen, Toyota or other car heavy weights begin serious EV production once they belief the market is ready. Diesel sales are better then ever in the last years, so they simply could afford to wait and continue to make money until infrastructure ramps up and technology improves. Tesla cannot do that. [1] https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/modular-electric-drive-matrix-meb-3677 https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/modular-electric-driv...
  - reacharavindh 7y ago
    Do you have any info about VW's batteries? If they are building up MEB for the next 2-3 years, they should have some idea of what they are going to do about batteries by now right? So far, it appears that batteries and drive train efficiency are the secret to Tesla's dominance in efficiency. VW would be a dumb competitor if it comes out in 2-3 years with a car that costs as much or more than a Tesla with only 60% of its range.... there is risk for VW as well here..
    - _Codemonkeyism 7y ago
      Several tests comparing Tesla with NIO show that the efficiency is the same, so not sure about "batteries and drive train efficiency are the secret to Tesla's dominance in efficiency."
      - bryanlarsen 7y ago
        Niro has efficiency but it's fast charging and acceleration is considerably worse than Tesla's. eTron has fast charging and acceleration but efficiency is considerably worse than Telsa's.
        _Codemonkeyism 7y ago
        Thanks didn't know, was just replying to the parents "efficiency" argument.
  - abalone 7y ago
    > they are horribly miscalculating at what German people expect from a car. Can you be more specific? What are Teslas lacking for the German market?
    - jakobegger 7y ago
      Not a German, but we Austrians love wagons and hatchbacks. Sedans are something that only old people drive here. A car with a tiny trunk like the Model 3 is no good for driving on vacation with the kids.
- Roark66 7y ago
  >Also, the Model 3 is a very attractive offering. It is the faster car, aims at the typical BMW audience Until you find out your range goes down significantly when you drive fast... I was seriously considering tesla model 3 as most of my trips are below 40 miles, but occasionally I do need to drive to another city 200 miles away, and when I do I want to be able to drive at the same speed I normally use at the motorway (around 90-95mph, or 150km/h). Tesla model 3 will give you less than 100 miles of range at that speed and that is what will kill Tesla for many people who currently drive VWs and BMWs.
  - gibolt 7y ago
    Most cars at that speed will get significantly reduced range, due to engine inefficiency and drag. Even then, a battery with 220 mile range should still get well over 100 in reality .
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    I don't know where you got your numbers from, but according to next move it has about 200 miles of range at 150km/h, going ever so slightly slower (and you probably will have sections with a speed limit anyway in between) would let you comfortably make the trip: https://nextmove.de/tesla-model-3-reichweitentest-bei-150-vs-120-km-h-auf-autobahn/ https://nextmove.de/tesla-model-3-reichweitentest-bei-150-vs...
whttheuuu 7y ago
"Why would you buy a Tesla when you can buy a Hyundai Kona for a lot less?" Lol, is this a serious question?
- dagw 7y ago
  is this a serious question? Of course it is. Saving a lot of money on a car means you can spend a lot of money on other things you enjoy. So why would you pay a lot of money to drive a Tesla instead of a Hyundai? Because the Tesla looks better? Drives better? Has better safety features? Is more reliable? Has a higher status value? I'm not saying that there aren't good reasons to buy a Tesla instead of Hyundai and had they cost the same then sure I'd buy a Tesla as well. But if I was in the market for a new electric car then "Why buy a Tesla when you can buy a Hyundai Kona for a lot less?" would definitely be a serious question I would be asking myself and I'm not sure I would come up with a good answer (or at least not a better answer than Tesla's are cool).
  - matthewdgreen 7y ago
    >I'm not saying that there aren't good reasons to buy a Tesla instead of Hyundai and had they cost the same then sure I'd buy a Tesla as well. The MSRP on the base-model Kona is $36,950, which is a bit less than the $39,500 Tesla SR+, but not dramatically. The next level of trim above the base model Kona is $41,500, and doesn't seem to add any significant features (LED headlamps, etc., which Tesla already has.) The highest level of Kona trim is $44,900, which is only $5k less than the Tesla Long Range model! My suspicion is that, given the low production numbers, Hyundai is going to focus primarily on selling the more expensive models. In practice this means (with a few lucky exceptions) you're looking at Tesla prices to get a Hyundai.
    - dagw 7y ago
      Fair enough. I was looking at the prices here in Sweden and here the base model Kona is ~$18k cheaper than the base model SR+.
- oblio 7y ago
pbreit 7y ago
"Why would you buy a Tesla when you can buy a Hyundai Kona for a lot less?" Sorry, but this is just a completely dumb question/statement. People buy 5x the number of Teslas than Konas because they Teslas are much, much more delightful.
- hyperbovine 7y ago
  > People buy 5x the number of Teslas than Konas because they Teslas are much, much more delightful. Sorry, but this is just a completely dumb statement. The reason Tesla sales are higher is partly because Hyundai literally cannot meet the demand for this car (https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/11/hyundai-reassures-dealers-as-battery-shortage-adds-dark-clouds-to-kona-electric-launch/ https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/11/hyundai-reassures-...). Economics is a real phenomenon, and way more people would rather have basic transportation + an extra $80k in their pocket than be “delighted” by owning a P100D.
  - pbreit 7y ago
    It does seem there is decent demand for Kona EV. Perhaps you were not aware of Tesla's Model 3 which is the same price as a Kona EV and much, much nicer. And not battery constrained.
  - Phase_White 7y ago
    Hyundai does not want to meet the demand for the car because it is a compliance car and they are losing money on each sale.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

by jaabe 7y ago

_ph_ 7y ago

First of all, you basically cannot buy a Hyundai. The production is far below Model 3 levels. Here in Germany, you are looking at 12 months wait time due to demand far exceeding supply. Also, the Model 3 is a very attractive offering. It is the faster car, aims at the typical BMW audience, and most of all, has the supercharger network available.

neuronic 7y ago
As another German I can definitely tell you that no one here sees a Model 3 at anywhere near a BMW in production quality. If Tesla intends to market the Model 3 at the "BMW audience" - whatever differentiates them from, say, the "Audi audience" - they are horribly miscalculating at what German people expect from a car. It is not limited to EV range. Also, Volkswagen is ramping up production on their Modular Electric Drive Matrix (MEB) [1] and within 2-3 years cars with this technology will hit the market. I wonder if Tesla can keep up when Volkswagen, Toyota or other car heavy weights begin serious EV production once they belief the market is ready. Diesel sales are better then ever in the last years, so they simply could afford to wait and continue to make money until infrastructure ramps up and technology improves. Tesla cannot do that. [1] https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/modular-electric-drive-matrix-meb-3677 https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/modular-electric-driv...
- reacharavindh 7y ago
  Do you have any info about VW's batteries? If they are building up MEB for the next 2-3 years, they should have some idea of what they are going to do about batteries by now right? So far, it appears that batteries and drive train efficiency are the secret to Tesla's dominance in efficiency. VW would be a dumb competitor if it comes out in 2-3 years with a car that costs as much or more than a Tesla with only 60% of its range.... there is risk for VW as well here..
  - _Codemonkeyism 7y ago
    Several tests comparing Tesla with NIO show that the efficiency is the same, so not sure about "batteries and drive train efficiency are the secret to Tesla's dominance in efficiency."
    - bryanlarsen 7y ago
      Niro has efficiency but it's fast charging and acceleration is considerably worse than Tesla's. eTron has fast charging and acceleration but efficiency is considerably worse than Telsa's.
      - _Codemonkeyism 7y ago
        Thanks didn't know, was just replying to the parents "efficiency" argument.
- abalone 7y ago
  > they are horribly miscalculating at what German people expect from a car. Can you be more specific? What are Teslas lacking for the German market?
  - jakobegger 7y ago
    Not a German, but we Austrians love wagons and hatchbacks. Sedans are something that only old people drive here. A car with a tiny trunk like the Model 3 is no good for driving on vacation with the kids.
Roark66 7y ago
>Also, the Model 3 is a very attractive offering. It is the faster car, aims at the typical BMW audience Until you find out your range goes down significantly when you drive fast... I was seriously considering tesla model 3 as most of my trips are below 40 miles, but occasionally I do need to drive to another city 200 miles away, and when I do I want to be able to drive at the same speed I normally use at the motorway (around 90-95mph, or 150km/h). Tesla model 3 will give you less than 100 miles of range at that speed and that is what will kill Tesla for many people who currently drive VWs and BMWs.
- gibolt 7y ago
  Most cars at that speed will get significantly reduced range, due to engine inefficiency and drag. Even then, a battery with 220 mile range should still get well over 100 in reality .
- _ph_ 7y ago
  I don't know where you got your numbers from, but according to next move it has about 200 miles of range at 150km/h, going ever so slightly slower (and you probably will have sections with a speed limit anyway in between) would let you comfortably make the trip: https://nextmove.de/tesla-model-3-reichweitentest-bei-150-vs-120-km-h-auf-autobahn/ https://nextmove.de/tesla-model-3-reichweitentest-bei-150-vs...

whttheuuu 7y ago

"Why would you buy a Tesla when you can buy a Hyundai Kona for a lot less?" Lol, is this a serious question?

dagw 7y ago
is this a serious question? Of course it is. Saving a lot of money on a car means you can spend a lot of money on other things you enjoy. So why would you pay a lot of money to drive a Tesla instead of a Hyundai? Because the Tesla looks better? Drives better? Has better safety features? Is more reliable? Has a higher status value? I'm not saying that there aren't good reasons to buy a Tesla instead of Hyundai and had they cost the same then sure I'd buy a Tesla as well. But if I was in the market for a new electric car then "Why buy a Tesla when you can buy a Hyundai Kona for a lot less?" would definitely be a serious question I would be asking myself and I'm not sure I would come up with a good answer (or at least not a better answer than Tesla's are cool).
- matthewdgreen 7y ago
  >I'm not saying that there aren't good reasons to buy a Tesla instead of Hyundai and had they cost the same then sure I'd buy a Tesla as well. The MSRP on the base-model Kona is $36,950, which is a bit less than the $39,500 Tesla SR+, but not dramatically. The next level of trim above the base model Kona is $41,500, and doesn't seem to add any significant features (LED headlamps, etc., which Tesla already has.) The highest level of Kona trim is $44,900, which is only $5k less than the Tesla Long Range model! My suspicion is that, given the low production numbers, Hyundai is going to focus primarily on selling the more expensive models. In practice this means (with a few lucky exceptions) you're looking at Tesla prices to get a Hyundai.
  - dagw 7y ago
    Fair enough. I was looking at the prices here in Sweden and here the base model Kona is ~$18k cheaper than the base model SR+.
oblio 7y ago

pbreit 7y ago

"Why would you buy a Tesla when you can buy a Hyundai Kona for a lot less?" Sorry, but this is just a completely dumb question/statement. People buy 5x the number of Teslas than Konas because they Teslas are much, much more delightful.

hyperbovine 7y ago
> People buy 5x the number of Teslas than Konas because they Teslas are much, much more delightful. Sorry, but this is just a completely dumb statement. The reason Tesla sales are higher is partly because Hyundai literally cannot meet the demand for this car (https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/11/hyundai-reassures-dealers-as-battery-shortage-adds-dark-clouds-to-kona-electric-launch/ https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/11/hyundai-reassures-...). Economics is a real phenomenon, and way more people would rather have basic transportation + an extra $80k in their pocket than be “delighted” by owning a P100D.
- pbreit 7y ago
  It does seem there is decent demand for Kona EV. Perhaps you were not aware of Tesla's Model 3 which is the same price as a Kona EV and much, much nicer. And not battery constrained.
- Phase_White 7y ago
  Hyundai does not want to meet the demand for the car because it is a compliance car and they are losing money on each sale.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]