7 ms·

Propose HN: 'Countless' experiment – hiding all karmic integers

68 points by floatingatoll 8y ago

I'd like HN to experiment with a "countless" view of the site for a week. As in: all vote, karma, and comment counts are removed from all pages sitewide. An example of this idea is here: https://i.imgur.com/OzE8qgq.png https://i.imgur.com/OzE8qgq.png I suggest this as a mandatory-for-all sitewide test, as otherwise the compulsion to see integer counts (such as karma) will fork HN into two distinct communities operating within the same shared space. I believe that this experiment is valuable only if everyone participates, and since the data will remain present on the back end, no harm is done to anyone's preferred integers of choice while the experiment is underway. I believe this would be a good experiment for HN as I worry that HN is unintentionally causing addictive feedback loops with its pervasive use of counts. Counts are already today hidden in scenarios where the admins seem to have determined that people behave more appropriately when they are unable to see a precise integer ranking of other's approval. I'd like to give the HN community a chance to experience the value of HN without the pressure of integer-ranking altogether. The voting algorithms need not be modified for this experiment, as we already are able to flag comments and posts effectively without being able to see how many flags are present. The front-page links that say whether comments are present or not would simply be replaced with the word 'discuss' to remove the pressure to 'be seen' participating in posts, permitting one's interest in the post and/or topic to become the sole determining factor for participation. I hope that HN is willing to entertain and implement this experiment and am curious to hear how the community feels about the idea.

brudgers 8y ago
Writing a browser extension hiding 'karma' might be a way to explore your theory without a dependency on anyone else working. A blog post or maybe a 'Show HN' could be used to share your experiences with the larger community. The dynamics would be opt-in. Such an experiment would clarify the problem of page position as a proxy for karma, i.e. the role of karma moving items up and down the page.
- bichiliad 8y ago
  Perhaps, but I think a lot of the power of an experiment like this would be to see what topics get voted up without the visual indication of karma (aside from the fact that it's on the front page, of course). You can only really get that with a critical mass of people using the plugin, or with buy-in from the site implementer.
jeethsuresh 8y ago
I took 5 minutes and wrote this as a userscript: // ==UserScript== // @name Remove HN Scores // @version 1 // @grant none // ==/UserScript== nodes = document.querySelectorAll(".score"); for (x = 0; x < nodes.length; x++) { nodes[x].remove()}
- localhostdotdev 8y ago
  css version tested with stylus: .score { display: none } /* stories and own comments */ .pagetop { color: transparent !important; } /* hide karma top right (also hides username and logout) */ #me, #logout { color: black } /* show username and logout */ #hnmain > tbody > tr:nth-child(3) > td > form > table > tbody > tr:nth-child(3):not(.athing) { display: none } /* own profile */ #hnmain > tbody > tr:nth-child(3) > td > table > tbody > tr:nth-child(3):not(.athing) { display: none } /* other user profile */ I don't think it could easily be truly hidden but a css experiment might be interesting.
  - jeethsuresh 8y ago
    Nice! I don't use stylus, but it's definitely good to have options for those who do
- onion2k 8y ago
  While that's helpful I think the point of the experiment is to see whether or not it changes what other people post, how we interact with HN, what stories make it to the front page etc. Hiding karma for yourself doesn't do that. It would be interesting but I doubt a week is enough to see a real difference, and I'd be sad if I didn't get more internet points.
  - jeethsuresh 8y ago
    Agreed on the point of the experiment, but I can only influence my own behavior :) You'll notice that I'm only deleting the score node, and leaving the number of comments, post age, and author intact. Those add considerable value to my HN browsing, and allow me to avoid visiting the comment section or clicking a link that I'll gain marginal (or negative) value from. In fact, I've always thought of HN (and other link aggregators) as a hub for discussion more than a collection of interesting links - the links themselves are often biased and it's important to learn about multiple sides of the topic lest the bias rubs off on me. I figured I'd share to lower the bar for those who wanted to see the effects for themselves - anecdotally, it hasn't changed much for me since the points themselves are less important than the way they affect the algorithm. I generally don't post/comment, and rarely vote, so I'm not really concerned about my karma total. Maybe I'm not the target market for this experiment?
rossenberg79 8y ago
If this really is what you want then I propose eliminating usernames entirely. Just enter a password to log in if you want some continuity. People rarely refer to each other by name here. It’s not important. Only content is important. Besides, a username in no way verifies your identity, you can say you are whoever you want to be.
- nisuni 8y ago
  You’ll get something like 4chan.
  - nathcd 8y ago
    This reminds me of a thought I've had recently. It'd be interesting to have an anonymous forum like 4chan but with the strong moderation/guidelines of HN or /r/askhistorians.
    - nathcd 8y ago
      Also, now that I'm thinking about it, I feel like tree style comment layouts are showing their age as well. I wonder if something like Zulip's layout could work in a more forum-y type of setting.
- isoprophlex 8y ago
  yeah, good idea, but I'd suggest hashed/pseudonymized usernames that are salted with the topic id for local consistency. I do value being able to read who is who in a dialogue
  - rossenberg79 8y ago
    That could be a good compromise.
- ansible 8y ago
  There are some consistently good commenters whose usernames I recognize. I will give anything they say slightly more weight than a random stranger. So usernames are useful to me.
johnmaguire2013 8y ago
When browsing the titles of Hacker News, I look at the vote and comment count to determine whether an article is high quality or not. I am not sure how I would filter the signal from the noise without this.
- localhostdotdev 8y ago
  you could use https://news.ycombinator.com/over?points=200 https://news.ycombinator.com/over?points=200 or maybe the experiment could allow opt-out
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    But you can use that one to then brute-force the points for every story.
    - localhostdotdev 8y ago
      not so easy for lower scores :)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- fyfy18 8y ago
  I don't really bother about the vote count, but more the comments. A lot of stories I don't even read, I just go straight to the comments as I find them a lot more valuable (most stories you can get the basis just from the title).
JoshTriplett 8y ago
> The front-page links that say whether comments are present or not would simply be replaced with the word 'discuss' Please do not do this. This makes HN far less convenient to browse. I regularly use the "N comments" information to find discussions worth reading. This has nothing to do with "being seen", it has to do with quickly finding interesting comments. The front-page screenshot you show completely removes that signal. For a similar example, consider how many email clients show you, without opening the mail, when it was sent and whether it has an attachment. This information helps with prioritization and processing, particularly when you have many emails. Comment counts, and to some degree story scores, serve a similar function, for people who are never going to read every story on even one viewing of the front page. I go to HN, I open a few stories and comment sections in tabs based on a combination of title, comments, and score, then close the front page and start reading. This isn't similar to the removal of scores from comments. For those, users were already on a page full of comments, comments themselves are relatively short and shown inline, and even without scores they're still reasonably sorted by some HN-internal metric of interestingness, making it possible to just read downwards and stop when your expected value of further comments doesn't seem worth the time of continuing. Removing comment counts and scores from stories, on the other hand, makes the front page far less usable. To look at this from another perspective: consider the myriad stories and discussions here on HN, about Facebook and Twitter and similar trying desperately to get their users to read content they don't want to read. "Let's stop sorting timelines reverse-chronological. Let's show random things from people you don't follow. Let's make it impossible to figure out where you left off. Let's make it so when you refresh (or click-then-go-back) you get completely different content and can't find the tweet you just saw a moment ago." No, stop, don't.
- crawfordcomeaux 8y ago
  Would you be willing to try it for a day or a week? If so, why? If not, why not?
  - sgillen 8y ago
    I think the comment more than answers your question.
mkl 8y ago
I think this is a terrible idea. It would drastically reduce the value of the site for me. Titles on HN are often not very clear, especially with the policy of removing editorialising by using the site's own title (which is often pretty meaningless out of context). The vote count is very important for guiding the limited time I can spend on the site.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
permitting one's interest in the post and/or topic to become the sole determining factor for participation. An awful lot of people here are more interested in the comments than the articles per se. Plenty of people read the comments first and then decide if they want to read the article. Many people participate in discussion without ever reading the article. (There are both good ways and bad ways to do that.) If you are relating to the site in a particular manner and not happy with it, I suggest you do a private experiment to try to find some new way to interact with the site. If you want to "offer" people the chance to experience this, I suggest you code up something that lets people try this.
_bxg1 8y ago
I definitely find myself having an addictive experience here; the dopamine rush from having an opinion validated is similar to what others may feel on Instagram or the like. Sometimes I refresh compulsively, hoping to see an integer go up. I don't really see a point to include the number of comments in this omission though; I don't see how that would create a dopamine loop for anyone, and it seems to be the main thing that commenters in this thread are averse to losing.
deleted 8y ago
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deleted 8y ago
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zzo38computer 8y ago
I can do without the vote and karma numbers, but comment numbers are important (mainly in order to see whether or not there are any comments, and if there are a lot of comments; not to determine whether or not the article itself is worth anything, which is something that the reader must decide for himself). If some users want those numbers visible and some not, one way to do is to add <span class="karma"> around those numbers in order that users can hide them if they want to do.
chuckschemer 8y ago
you'll have more luck with a chrome extension. this place will never do such a thing. "they know best", they will never change from an outside suggestion. in case you haven't noticed the forum culture is not flexible. hn is a very specifically flawed lens to the world. they're not about to "fix" anything because "nothing is broken" they will patiently explain to you why you're wrong, then get on with being the unchanging same thing they are. a funny paradox. a non innovating lens onto a "highly innovative" part of the world.
- dang 8y ago
  We actually suggested to floatingatoll that he post this submission, as part of an email conversation we were having. I'm not closed to trying experiments like this. Would you please stop creating all these accounts and, especially, stop breaking the site guidelines on a regular basis? That's something we actually do feel strongly about. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dangrossman 8y ago
This experiment was run 10 years ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=844979 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=844979

68 points by floatingatoll 8y ago

brudgers 8y ago

Writing a browser extension hiding 'karma' might be a way to explore your theory without a dependency on anyone else working. A blog post or maybe a 'Show HN' could be used to share your experiences with the larger community. The dynamics would be opt-in. Such an experiment would clarify the problem of page position as a proxy for karma, i.e. the role of karma moving items up and down the page.

bichiliad 8y ago
Perhaps, but I think a lot of the power of an experiment like this would be to see what topics get voted up without the visual indication of karma (aside from the fact that it's on the front page, of course). You can only really get that with a critical mass of people using the plugin, or with buy-in from the site implementer.

jeethsuresh 8y ago

I took 5 minutes and wrote this as a userscript: // ==UserScript== // @name Remove HN Scores // @version 1 // @grant none // ==/UserScript== nodes = document.querySelectorAll(".score"); for (x = 0; x < nodes.length; x++) { nodes[x].remove()}

localhostdotdev 8y ago
css version tested with stylus: .score { display: none } /* stories and own comments */ .pagetop { color: transparent !important; } /* hide karma top right (also hides username and logout) */ #me, #logout { color: black } /* show username and logout */ #hnmain > tbody > tr:nth-child(3) > td > form > table > tbody > tr:nth-child(3):not(.athing) { display: none } /* own profile */ #hnmain > tbody > tr:nth-child(3) > td > table > tbody > tr:nth-child(3):not(.athing) { display: none } /* other user profile */ I don't think it could easily be truly hidden but a css experiment might be interesting.
- jeethsuresh 8y ago
  Nice! I don't use stylus, but it's definitely good to have options for those who do
onion2k 8y ago
While that's helpful I think the point of the experiment is to see whether or not it changes what other people post, how we interact with HN, what stories make it to the front page etc. Hiding karma for yourself doesn't do that. It would be interesting but I doubt a week is enough to see a real difference, and I'd be sad if I didn't get more internet points.
- jeethsuresh 8y ago
  Agreed on the point of the experiment, but I can only influence my own behavior :) You'll notice that I'm only deleting the score node, and leaving the number of comments, post age, and author intact. Those add considerable value to my HN browsing, and allow me to avoid visiting the comment section or clicking a link that I'll gain marginal (or negative) value from. In fact, I've always thought of HN (and other link aggregators) as a hub for discussion more than a collection of interesting links - the links themselves are often biased and it's important to learn about multiple sides of the topic lest the bias rubs off on me. I figured I'd share to lower the bar for those who wanted to see the effects for themselves - anecdotally, it hasn't changed much for me since the points themselves are less important than the way they affect the algorithm. I generally don't post/comment, and rarely vote, so I'm not really concerned about my karma total. Maybe I'm not the target market for this experiment?

rossenberg79 8y ago

If this really is what you want then I propose eliminating usernames entirely. Just enter a password to log in if you want some continuity. People rarely refer to each other by name here. It’s not important. Only content is important. Besides, a username in no way verifies your identity, you can say you are whoever you want to be.

nisuni 8y ago
You’ll get something like 4chan.
- nathcd 8y ago
  This reminds me of a thought I've had recently. It'd be interesting to have an anonymous forum like 4chan but with the strong moderation/guidelines of HN or /r/askhistorians.
  - nathcd 8y ago
    Also, now that I'm thinking about it, I feel like tree style comment layouts are showing their age as well. I wonder if something like Zulip's layout could work in a more forum-y type of setting.
isoprophlex 8y ago
yeah, good idea, but I'd suggest hashed/pseudonymized usernames that are salted with the topic id for local consistency. I do value being able to read who is who in a dialogue
- rossenberg79 8y ago
  That could be a good compromise.
ansible 8y ago
There are some consistently good commenters whose usernames I recognize. I will give anything they say slightly more weight than a random stranger. So usernames are useful to me.

johnmaguire2013 8y ago

When browsing the titles of Hacker News, I look at the vote and comment count to determine whether an article is high quality or not. I am not sure how I would filter the signal from the noise without this.

localhostdotdev 8y ago
you could use https://news.ycombinator.com/over?points=200 https://news.ycombinator.com/over?points=200 or maybe the experiment could allow opt-out
- heavenlyblue 8y ago
  But you can use that one to then brute-force the points for every story.
  - localhostdotdev 8y ago
    not so easy for lower scores :)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
fyfy18 8y ago
I don't really bother about the vote count, but more the comments. A lot of stories I don't even read, I just go straight to the comments as I find them a lot more valuable (most stories you can get the basis just from the title).

JoshTriplett 8y ago

> The front-page links that say whether comments are present or not would simply be replaced with the word 'discuss' Please do not do this. This makes HN far less convenient to browse. I regularly use the "N comments" information to find discussions worth reading. This has nothing to do with "being seen", it has to do with quickly finding interesting comments. The front-page screenshot you show completely removes that signal. For a similar example, consider how many email clients show you, without opening the mail, when it was sent and whether it has an attachment. This information helps with prioritization and processing, particularly when you have many emails. Comment counts, and to some degree story scores, serve a similar function, for people who are never going to read every story on even one viewing of the front page. I go to HN, I open a few stories and comment sections in tabs based on a combination of title, comments, and score, then close the front page and start reading. This isn't similar to the removal of scores from comments. For those, users were already on a page full of comments, comments themselves are relatively short and shown inline, and even without scores they're still reasonably sorted by some HN-internal metric of interestingness, making it possible to just read downwards and stop when your expected value of further comments doesn't seem worth the time of continuing. Removing comment counts and scores from stories, on the other hand, makes the front page far less usable. To look at this from another perspective: consider the myriad stories and discussions here on HN, about Facebook and Twitter and similar trying desperately to get their users to read content they don't want to read. "Let's stop sorting timelines reverse-chronological. Let's show random things from people you don't follow. Let's make it impossible to figure out where you left off. Let's make it so when you refresh (or click-then-go-back) you get completely different content and can't find the tweet you just saw a moment ago." No, stop, don't.

crawfordcomeaux 8y ago
Would you be willing to try it for a day or a week? If so, why? If not, why not?
- sgillen 8y ago
  I think the comment more than answers your question.

mkl 8y ago

I think this is a terrible idea. It would drastically reduce the value of the site for me. Titles on HN are often not very clear, especially with the policy of removing editorialising by using the site's own title (which is often pretty meaningless out of context). The vote count is very important for guiding the limited time I can spend on the site.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

permitting one's interest in the post and/or topic to become the sole determining factor for participation. An awful lot of people here are more interested in the comments than the articles per se. Plenty of people read the comments first and then decide if they want to read the article. Many people participate in discussion without ever reading the article. (There are both good ways and bad ways to do that.) If you are relating to the site in a particular manner and not happy with it, I suggest you do a private experiment to try to find some new way to interact with the site. If you want to "offer" people the chance to experience this, I suggest you code up something that lets people try this.

_bxg1 8y ago

I definitely find myself having an addictive experience here; the dopamine rush from having an opinion validated is similar to what others may feel on Instagram or the like. Sometimes I refresh compulsively, hoping to see an integer go up. I don't really see a point to include the number of comments in this omission though; I don't see how that would create a dopamine loop for anyone, and it seems to be the main thing that commenters in this thread are averse to losing.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

zzo38computer 8y ago

I can do without the vote and karma numbers, but comment numbers are important (mainly in order to see whether or not there are any comments, and if there are a lot of comments; not to determine whether or not the article itself is worth anything, which is something that the reader must decide for himself). If some users want those numbers visible and some not, one way to do is to add <span class="karma"> around those numbers in order that users can hide them if they want to do.

chuckschemer 8y ago

you'll have more luck with a chrome extension. this place will never do such a thing. "they know best", they will never change from an outside suggestion. in case you haven't noticed the forum culture is not flexible. hn is a very specifically flawed lens to the world. they're not about to "fix" anything because "nothing is broken" they will patiently explain to you why you're wrong, then get on with being the unchanging same thing they are. a funny paradox. a non innovating lens onto a "highly innovative" part of the world.

dang 8y ago
We actually suggested to floatingatoll that he post this submission, as part of an email conversation we were having. I'm not closed to trying experiments like this. Would you please stop creating all these accounts and, especially, stop breaking the site guidelines on a regular basis? That's something we actually do feel strongly about. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dangrossman 8y ago

This experiment was run 10 years ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=844979 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=844979