3 ms·

I mean do you by all means, but from a hiring perspective this would be behavior we would evaluate negatively in our process. YMMV of course, and you have the

by crsv 7y ago

I mean do you by all means, but from a hiring perspective this would be behavior we would evaluate negatively in our process. YMMV of course, and you have the right to these choices.

lmilcin 7y ago
And that's fine as I would not be interested to work for you anyway. For me the prerequisite is mutual ability to work out differences with my future boss. If we can't agree on a detail so fine as the exact process he uses to learn I can program couple of loops how are we going to deal with really challenging problems? Why would you turn away a candidate that is able to explain why your process is flawed, stand for what he believes and propose a solution that gives both parties what they want. Do you have such surplus of candidates that you can throw away the ones that have spine with impunity? In your case you want to learn if the candidate is able to code and what best way if he shows how he does it while he does it with you sitting beside. Also explaining the process and showing way more like asking for clarification and verifying results with you?
- eropple 7y ago
  > Why would you turn away a candidate that is able to explain why your process is flawed, stand for what he believes and propose a solution that gives both parties what they want. The insecure parse this as a threat to them, if we're being frank. It also costs them more money, and having you shoulder as much of the burden as possible is part of the short-term-thinkers' goal.
- brianpgordon 7y ago
  You're kind of cavalierly assuming that everyone agrees with you that the process is flawed. This is definitely a question that reasonable people can disagree about. And if you not only disagree with this hypothetical hiring manager, but you even do it in the fairly arrogant way you're writing now, I wouldn't blame them for passing. Just to expand a little on why a take-home test could be warranted, I can imagine a few scenarios: 1. You're a Facebook/Amazon/Netflix/Google/Microsoft and you have candidates lined up around the block trying to apply. 2. You're bootstrapped or full on headcount and can afford to take your time and absorb lots of false negatives. 3. You're in a very niche space and know that the few people in the domain are going to be willing to put a ton of work into each and every application. If there were somehow a job that let me play video games and read science fiction while fixing electronics gear on the Moon, of course I'd do a paid take-home assignment for a chance.
  - lmilcin 7y ago
    Somehow, neither Facebook, nor Amazon, Netflix, Google nor Microsoft give home assignments as a prerequisite for entering into the process. I can assure you there is no shortage of candidates willing to work for any of them that would take the assignment in a heartbeat. I can assume the reason they are not giving assignments is what I stated, the hiring process is extremely expensive and it makes absolutely no sense to do stuff that does not give any useful information but may prevent you from ever reaching top candidates that will not let themselves be subjected to this. The coding assignment has a purpose and the purpose is not to tell if you are world class developer but assure you meeting minimum requirement to be considered for the position. If you give it as home assignment there will be tons of people willing to cheat like getting somebody to do it for you and then explain the solution so that you might pass cursory inspection. Or people who will take inordinate amount of time and spend 50 hours instead of expected 30 minutes you said should be enough. There is no excuse, the time you spend explaining the assignment and reviewing the results would be better spent setting up a coderpad session (https://coderpad.io/ https://coderpad.io/) where you can actually see the person work on the solution and not only the solution itself. Where you can ask questions and have understanding of whether the person is able to solve the problem analytically or writes stuff at random until he finds solution by trial and error.

by crsv 7y ago

I mean do you by all means, but from a hiring perspective this would be behavior we would evaluate negatively in our process. YMMV of course, and you have the right to these choices.

lmilcin 7y ago

And that's fine as I would not be interested to work for you anyway. For me the prerequisite is mutual ability to work out differences with my future boss. If we can't agree on a detail so fine as the exact process he uses to learn I can program couple of loops how are we going to deal with really challenging problems? Why would you turn away a candidate that is able to explain why your process is flawed, stand for what he believes and propose a solution that gives both parties what they want. Do you have such surplus of candidates that you can throw away the ones that have spine with impunity? In your case you want to learn if the candidate is able to code and what best way if he shows how he does it while he does it with you sitting beside. Also explaining the process and showing way more like asking for clarification and verifying results with you?

eropple 7y ago
> Why would you turn away a candidate that is able to explain why your process is flawed, stand for what he believes and propose a solution that gives both parties what they want. The insecure parse this as a threat to them, if we're being frank. It also costs them more money, and having you shoulder as much of the burden as possible is part of the short-term-thinkers' goal.
brianpgordon 7y ago
You're kind of cavalierly assuming that everyone agrees with you that the process is flawed. This is definitely a question that reasonable people can disagree about. And if you not only disagree with this hypothetical hiring manager, but you even do it in the fairly arrogant way you're writing now, I wouldn't blame them for passing. Just to expand a little on why a take-home test could be warranted, I can imagine a few scenarios: 1. You're a Facebook/Amazon/Netflix/Google/Microsoft and you have candidates lined up around the block trying to apply. 2. You're bootstrapped or full on headcount and can afford to take your time and absorb lots of false negatives. 3. You're in a very niche space and know that the few people in the domain are going to be willing to put a ton of work into each and every application. If there were somehow a job that let me play video games and read science fiction while fixing electronics gear on the Moon, of course I'd do a paid take-home assignment for a chance.
- lmilcin 7y ago
  Somehow, neither Facebook, nor Amazon, Netflix, Google nor Microsoft give home assignments as a prerequisite for entering into the process. I can assure you there is no shortage of candidates willing to work for any of them that would take the assignment in a heartbeat. I can assume the reason they are not giving assignments is what I stated, the hiring process is extremely expensive and it makes absolutely no sense to do stuff that does not give any useful information but may prevent you from ever reaching top candidates that will not let themselves be subjected to this. The coding assignment has a purpose and the purpose is not to tell if you are world class developer but assure you meeting minimum requirement to be considered for the position. If you give it as home assignment there will be tons of people willing to cheat like getting somebody to do it for you and then explain the solution so that you might pass cursory inspection. Or people who will take inordinate amount of time and spend 50 hours instead of expected 30 minutes you said should be enough. There is no excuse, the time you spend explaining the assignment and reviewing the results would be better spent setting up a coderpad session (https://coderpad.io/ https://coderpad.io/) where you can actually see the person work on the solution and not only the solution itself. Where you can ask questions and have understanding of whether the person is able to solve the problem analytically or writes stuff at random until he finds solution by trial and error.