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> “Anytime someone is collecting where you are, that means it could go to someone else who could find you when you don’t want to be found,” How is this differe

by goshx 8y ago

> “Anytime someone is collecting where you are, that means it could go to someone else who could find you when you don’t want to be found,” How is this different than Amazon literally shipping packages to someone's home address and having their billing information?

spaceheretostay 8y ago
The people who are packing the boxes and knocking on your door don't have access to the microphones inside your house. Hearing conversations and search requests from customers is quite different from knocking on their door or packing a box. Combining the knowledge of what you say inside with knowing where you live is different than the knowledge of a purchase you made and where you live. Also, I would certainly assume Amazon to know my home address if I bought Alexa and shipped it there. But most people wouldn't assume that Amazon actual employees are listening to their conversations who also know where you live. HN might expect that, but Amazon makes a privacy promise that is violated here, as described in the article: > In an April 10 statement acknowledging the Alexa auditing program, Amazon said “employees do not have direct access to information that can identify the person or account as part of this workflow.” Bloomberg is saying that this statement by Amazon was false, because the location information from the Alexa devices can, in some cases, identify the individual or account "as part of this workflow".
- ajross 8y ago
  To be clear: there's no assertion of real-time access to microphones anywhere. This is a quality team that has access to some presumptive subset of recorded data. The headline and your interpretation are leaning very heavily on the "ZOMG SPYING!" angle, where... I honestly don't see it. This seems like pretty heavy spinning. Yes, they should probably have a policy of scrubbing data better before voices get presented to human ears. > Combining the knowledge of what you say inside with knowing where you live is different than the knowledge of a purchase you made and where you live. Technically true, but... is it actually worse? I can see convincing arguments made either way, frankly.
  - spaceheretostay 8y ago
    > To be clear: there's no assertion of real-time access to microphones anywhere. Well yes I know, I figure this data is likely years-old or whatever, I don't see how that matters? I didn't bring up real-time access and I'm well aware that Amazon doesn't (likely) even have that capability. Nobody here is asserting real-time access to microphones! > Technically true, but... is it actually worse? I can see convincing arguments made either way, frankly. Yes, it is much much worse, because it is a direct violation of their own statements about privacy. Amazon makes no statement about their box packers or labellers not knowing your address, because they obviously have to know that in order to put the label on or knock on your door. But Amazon does make a privacy promise to not do what they are doing here. So they are totally different things and it matters due to customer expectation and their own written words. Edit: I'm "posting too fast" and am not allowed to reply to the user below. I will state that I do care about privacy, I was simply taking the simplest debate stance to demonstrate that the two concepts are quite different (package delivery knowing your address and human reviewers of your voice commands knowing your address). If you look at my comments on this article you will surely see that I care about privacy.
    - ajross 8y ago
      So... you're not actually concerned about "privacy" as such, just with Amazon's fidelity to their written policy? Yeah, you're spinning here. The headline and your hyperbole above quite clearly want to frame this as a "Amazon is spying on your family" thing. And when challenged, you're retreating to a bland critique of their process adherence.
      - zepto 7y ago
        ‘Just’ fidelity to a written policy about how they handle data from microphones in your house.
        ajross 7y ago
        The point was: that worry (which, fine, you care a lot about) wasn't the one espoused upthread or in the linked clickbait. It was the fallback position for the poster when challenged on the "spying" angle that everyone originally started with. So fine, Amazon didn't honor their agreement and they should fix it. They didn't spy on your kids.
- luckylion 8y ago
  If that hasn't changed, the people packing your box don't even see your name or address, the package gets automatically labeled at a later stage.
negamax 8y ago
Completely unrelated systems and customer expectations. Own Alexa and frequent Amazon shopper. If Amazon wants to improve their voice capabilities. They just need to fire mech Turk and transcribe the audio -> Retrain their models => Assimilate customer information automatically. This whole process can be easily anonymized
rchaud 8y ago
The collection and use of that information is regulated by PCI DSS, and a retailer of Amazon's scale (>6m transactions per year) agrees to comply with compliance checks like: - Annual Report on Compliance (ROC) by a Qualified Security Assessor (QSA)—also commonly known as a Level 1 onsite assessment—or internal auditor if signed by officer of the company - Quarterly network scan by Approved Scan Vendor (ASV) - Attestation of Compliance form https://squareup.com/ca/guides/pci-compliance https://squareup.com/ca/guides/pci-compliance Not sure how much "protection" that provides, but at least it's an area where Amazon itself is not the sole arbiter of what is considered OK and not OK when it comes to data collection. The bigger issue is disclosure and informed consent. Amazon buyers know when they purchase a product that the vendor has their address and CC info, which they believe is protected. They may not know that the Alexa they bought as a holiday gift for their nephew is giving up location data to a team of "thousands of employees and contractors, spread across work sites from Boston to Romania and India."
JohnFen 7y ago
> How is this different than Amazon literally shipping packages to someone's home address and having their billing information? If I'm asking a company to ship something to my home address, I've given explicit and active consent to them to have and use that information for that purpose.
StanislavPetrov 7y ago
When Amazon ships a package to your house, they don't get my home address and all of my personal information because I happen to be one of your friends.

by goshx 8y ago

spaceheretostay 8y ago

The people who are packing the boxes and knocking on your door don't have access to the microphones inside your house. Hearing conversations and search requests from customers is quite different from knocking on their door or packing a box. Combining the knowledge of what you say inside with knowing where you live is different than the knowledge of a purchase you made and where you live. Also, I would certainly assume Amazon to know my home address if I bought Alexa and shipped it there. But most people wouldn't assume that Amazon actual employees are listening to their conversations who also know where you live. HN might expect that, but Amazon makes a privacy promise that is violated here, as described in the article: > In an April 10 statement acknowledging the Alexa auditing program, Amazon said “employees do not have direct access to information that can identify the person or account as part of this workflow.” Bloomberg is saying that this statement by Amazon was false, because the location information from the Alexa devices can, in some cases, identify the individual or account "as part of this workflow".

ajross 8y ago
To be clear: there's no assertion of real-time access to microphones anywhere. This is a quality team that has access to some presumptive subset of recorded data. The headline and your interpretation are leaning very heavily on the "ZOMG SPYING!" angle, where... I honestly don't see it. This seems like pretty heavy spinning. Yes, they should probably have a policy of scrubbing data better before voices get presented to human ears. > Combining the knowledge of what you say inside with knowing where you live is different than the knowledge of a purchase you made and where you live. Technically true, but... is it actually worse? I can see convincing arguments made either way, frankly.
- spaceheretostay 8y ago
  > To be clear: there's no assertion of real-time access to microphones anywhere. Well yes I know, I figure this data is likely years-old or whatever, I don't see how that matters? I didn't bring up real-time access and I'm well aware that Amazon doesn't (likely) even have that capability. Nobody here is asserting real-time access to microphones! > Technically true, but... is it actually worse? I can see convincing arguments made either way, frankly. Yes, it is much much worse, because it is a direct violation of their own statements about privacy. Amazon makes no statement about their box packers or labellers not knowing your address, because they obviously have to know that in order to put the label on or knock on your door. But Amazon does make a privacy promise to not do what they are doing here. So they are totally different things and it matters due to customer expectation and their own written words. Edit: I'm "posting too fast" and am not allowed to reply to the user below. I will state that I do care about privacy, I was simply taking the simplest debate stance to demonstrate that the two concepts are quite different (package delivery knowing your address and human reviewers of your voice commands knowing your address). If you look at my comments on this article you will surely see that I care about privacy.
  - ajross 8y ago
    So... you're not actually concerned about "privacy" as such, just with Amazon's fidelity to their written policy? Yeah, you're spinning here. The headline and your hyperbole above quite clearly want to frame this as a "Amazon is spying on your family" thing. And when challenged, you're retreating to a bland critique of their process adherence.
    - zepto 7y ago
      ‘Just’ fidelity to a written policy about how they handle data from microphones in your house.
      - ajross 7y ago
        The point was: that worry (which, fine, you care a lot about) wasn't the one espoused upthread or in the linked clickbait. It was the fallback position for the poster when challenged on the "spying" angle that everyone originally started with. So fine, Amazon didn't honor their agreement and they should fix it. They didn't spy on your kids.
luckylion 8y ago
If that hasn't changed, the people packing your box don't even see your name or address, the package gets automatically labeled at a later stage.

negamax 8y ago

Completely unrelated systems and customer expectations. Own Alexa and frequent Amazon shopper. If Amazon wants to improve their voice capabilities. They just need to fire mech Turk and transcribe the audio -> Retrain their models => Assimilate customer information automatically. This whole process can be easily anonymized

rchaud 8y ago

The collection and use of that information is regulated by PCI DSS, and a retailer of Amazon's scale (>6m transactions per year) agrees to comply with compliance checks like: - Annual Report on Compliance (ROC) by a Qualified Security Assessor (QSA)—also commonly known as a Level 1 onsite assessment—or internal auditor if signed by officer of the company - Quarterly network scan by Approved Scan Vendor (ASV) - Attestation of Compliance form https://squareup.com/ca/guides/pci-compliance https://squareup.com/ca/guides/pci-compliance Not sure how much "protection" that provides, but at least it's an area where Amazon itself is not the sole arbiter of what is considered OK and not OK when it comes to data collection. The bigger issue is disclosure and informed consent. Amazon buyers know when they purchase a product that the vendor has their address and CC info, which they believe is protected. They may not know that the Alexa they bought as a holiday gift for their nephew is giving up location data to a team of "thousands of employees and contractors, spread across work sites from Boston to Romania and India."

JohnFen 7y ago

> How is this different than Amazon literally shipping packages to someone's home address and having their billing information? If I'm asking a company to ship something to my home address, I've given explicit and active consent to them to have and use that information for that purpose.

StanislavPetrov 7y ago

When Amazon ships a package to your house, they don't get my home address and all of my personal information because I happen to be one of your friends.