7 ms·

In many places of the world, especially outside of cities, staying healthy without meat is challenging. Even where I am now in a midsized city in the United Sta

In many places of the world, especially outside of cities, staying healthy without meat is challenging. Even where I am now in a midsized city in the United States, I have to drive 40 minutes to find a store with tempeh. Even if access wasn't a problem, I had to do a lot of research to make sure I'm hitting micronutrient targets, and then buy a number of supplements. It's too complicated. I agree that there is a problem. But once again, pointing at individuals is not productive. Changes like this have to happen at a more centralized level. People (and businesses) will follow the path of least resistance and as long as producing and consuming meat is the easiest path, that's what most people will do.

cageface 8y ago
Which is really pathetic if you think about it. Cutting way down or eliminating meat is actually extremely easy, especially anywhere in the US. But people value Instagramming their bacon too much. As a species we have a very heavy karmic payback coming and these kinds of attitudes are a big part of the reason. Also you don't need tempeh. Beans are available everywhere, just as nutritious, and dirt cheap.
- jniedrauer 8y ago
  > Which is really pathetic if you think about it. Blaming individuals for a demographic problem is not productive. It doesn't seem like you read that part though...
  - cageface 8y ago
    How is it a demographic problem? Who is forcing you to eat meat? Most societal changes are brought about by individuals with the courage to question something that is wrong but socially normalized.
    - overthemoon 8y ago
      Reducing systemic, global issues to the actions of the individuals is simplistic. It's technically true that if everyone stopped eating meat tomorrow these industries would collapse, but it's also true that if people would simply stop killing each other, we wouldn't need prisons. People are not autonomous rational actors, we're creatures with a context, wills, and desires. "Simply be more virtuous" glosses over why the choices people have to make and are able to make exist in the first place. Don't eat meat, sure, I won't argue that in the right context that's the virtuous choice, but why is it on US to change, rather than the people at the actual levers of power?
      - komali2 8y ago
        Also, "simply be more virtuous" is never a solution that has ever worked. I've had similar conversations - "getting a job is easy, just pick a good major and work hard like I did." Sure, but what did standing there and saying that do? When I go meet with the city council, and I say those exact words, what has been accomplished? What policy can be written, what programs can be started, based off casting an accusation like that?
    - jniedrauer 8y ago
      Who is forcing you to use single use plastic? Who is forcing you to drive a car powered by an internal combustion engine? Who is forcing you to eat food produced on degrading land? That's not how the tragedy of the commons works. > Most societal changes are brought about by individuals with the courage to question something that is wrong but socially normalized. [Citation needed] The truth is that most sweeping societal change is driven by a central government and always has been. Everything from the transition to city-states, the industrial revolution to civil rights. Individuals convince their central governments to act, but you can't just convince an entire population to change their mind without a monopoly on violence.
    - komali2 8y ago
      >Who is forcing you to eat meat? Are people "forced" to celebrate Valentine's day? Are they "forced" to wear blue jeans? Listen to either rock OR pop OR rap OR country? Demographic == culture. We eat meat because we eat meat because we ate meat, for ten thousand years. Do you blame a child for their "choice" of religion? Do you blame a family that drives to work over taking the bus, which sucks 4 hours extra out of their day because they live in Pocatello, Idaho and don't have much of a transit system?
- natalyarostova 8y ago
  > But people value Instagramming their bacon too much. You realize people enjoy bacon for the flavor, right?
  - cageface 8y ago
    So if an alien race far superior to our own arrived on earth tomorrow and started having humans for breakfast, just because they were tasty, you wouldn’t object right?
    - jcoffland 8y ago
      I'd be more interested in their recipes.
    - zelon88 8y ago
      If they're smart enough to subdue me and my entire civilization using technology unfathomable to my puny human mind then I guess I don't really get a say and it doesn't matter what I think anyway, now does it? There's an analogy to livestock in there if you look hard enough.
      - spraak 8y ago
        So if intelligence is the marker, is it ok to manipulate mentally handicapped people?
        zelon88 8y ago
        We're not talking about marginal intelligence difference. You're making the exception the rule. We're talking different species here. The food chain applies and if you're not at the top there's no advocate built into nature for you. You're a commodity and the only thing securing your survival is your value and the responsibility of the species above you.
    - natalyarostova 8y ago
      Of course I would. Do you think my lack of objection somehow shows a moral inconsistency? I think you do -- but that's only true if you project a very rigid and symmetrical concept of moral intuition on to me, which I promise you I don't hold.
- squeaky-clean 8y ago
  > But people value Instagramming their bacon too much. ...Yeah pretty sure that's not the reason. Vegetarian meals are usually more colorful and better for photos, bacon is a very boring photo. It's the taste. Tempeh is a decent bacon substitute, beans are not. I feel like I'm missing some sarcasm here or something.
  - cageface 8y ago
    If you consider for a second if your breakfast taste preferences really justify the abuse and killing of an animal at least as intelligent as a dog, you might broaden your horizons enough to discover that there are plenty of delicious things you can eat for breakfast that don’t come with that black bill attached.
    - spraak 8y ago
      HN hivemind is triggered! Thanks for spreading awareness (I'm vegan btw)
      - squeaky-clean 8y ago
        This isn't spreading awareness, this is how you make people sick of your cause. This is like the angry preacher who goes down to college campuses and yells that sex is the devil. After enough missing-the-point, anyone not on your side gives up listening or actively assumes anything else you say is also missing the point.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - squeaky-clean 8y ago
      I'm not defending eating meat here. All I'm saying is you might want to broaden your own horizons as to why people eat it. To pretend things like taste don't exist makes your argument disingenuous and makes anyone likely to dismiss your arguments right away. If you're going to boil it down so simply, there are cruelty free sources of meat, and since you choose to ignore that and your only argument is cruelty... I'm just going to ignore everything else you say, because the one area I do understand, I understand you're making stuff up about.
pajaroide 8y ago
There are tons of easy alternatives for vegetable protein, including good old lentils, beans, chickpeas, etc. You don't have to go out of your way to buy tempeh or gourmet vegetarian food.
- jniedrauer 8y ago
  Hitting high protein or low carb macros is difficult without some kind of protein supplement. I'm currently targeting 50% fat, 25% protein, 25% carbs for endurance reasons. Of course this isn't applicable to everyone. But it is applicable to anyone who needs to keep carbs low for health reasons, or anyone with some kind of athletic hobby. Also bear in mind that not all protein is created equal. If wheat gluten wasn't low in lysine, I'd eat a lot more of it.
  - oftenwrong 8y ago
    So, basically: 1. "healthy" doesn't mean living a long life free of ailments. It means achieving your standard of athletic performance as a hobby. 2. "challenging" doesn't mean difficult. It means doing some research, buying more tempeh at once and maybe freezing it, or just buying a protein supplement.
    - jniedrauer 8y ago
      > "challenging" doesn't mean difficult. It means doing some research, buying That's already too much. I can do that, and you can do that. Our jobs are to research things and then implement them. Most people will not or can not do this. Expecting them to is a waste of time. The way to solve this would be to de-incentivize meat production on the supply side, and encourage food distributors to fortify food with micronutrients that are commonly missing in vegetarian diets (vitamin B12, calcium, etc). Anything short of this is not going to do much except turn people off from being vegetarian.
      - oftenwrong 8y ago
        I just want to make sure I am clear on the argument you are making. Are you saying the average person can't easily be healthy without meat? That it would require them to do research? That it is easier for them to be healthy on meat-including diet without doing any research? I agree that none of this matters as long as people can eat meat. They will if they can.

cageface 8y ago

Which is really pathetic if you think about it. Cutting way down or eliminating meat is actually extremely easy, especially anywhere in the US. But people value Instagramming their bacon too much. As a species we have a very heavy karmic payback coming and these kinds of attitudes are a big part of the reason. Also you don't need tempeh. Beans are available everywhere, just as nutritious, and dirt cheap.

jniedrauer 8y ago
> Which is really pathetic if you think about it. Blaming individuals for a demographic problem is not productive. It doesn't seem like you read that part though...
- cageface 8y ago
  How is it a demographic problem? Who is forcing you to eat meat? Most societal changes are brought about by individuals with the courage to question something that is wrong but socially normalized.
  - overthemoon 8y ago
    Reducing systemic, global issues to the actions of the individuals is simplistic. It's technically true that if everyone stopped eating meat tomorrow these industries would collapse, but it's also true that if people would simply stop killing each other, we wouldn't need prisons. People are not autonomous rational actors, we're creatures with a context, wills, and desires. "Simply be more virtuous" glosses over why the choices people have to make and are able to make exist in the first place. Don't eat meat, sure, I won't argue that in the right context that's the virtuous choice, but why is it on US to change, rather than the people at the actual levers of power?
    - komali2 8y ago
      Also, "simply be more virtuous" is never a solution that has ever worked. I've had similar conversations - "getting a job is easy, just pick a good major and work hard like I did." Sure, but what did standing there and saying that do? When I go meet with the city council, and I say those exact words, what has been accomplished? What policy can be written, what programs can be started, based off casting an accusation like that?
  - jniedrauer 8y ago
    Who is forcing you to use single use plastic? Who is forcing you to drive a car powered by an internal combustion engine? Who is forcing you to eat food produced on degrading land? That's not how the tragedy of the commons works. > Most societal changes are brought about by individuals with the courage to question something that is wrong but socially normalized. [Citation needed] The truth is that most sweeping societal change is driven by a central government and always has been. Everything from the transition to city-states, the industrial revolution to civil rights. Individuals convince their central governments to act, but you can't just convince an entire population to change their mind without a monopoly on violence.
  - komali2 8y ago
    >Who is forcing you to eat meat? Are people "forced" to celebrate Valentine's day? Are they "forced" to wear blue jeans? Listen to either rock OR pop OR rap OR country? Demographic == culture. We eat meat because we eat meat because we ate meat, for ten thousand years. Do you blame a child for their "choice" of religion? Do you blame a family that drives to work over taking the bus, which sucks 4 hours extra out of their day because they live in Pocatello, Idaho and don't have much of a transit system?
natalyarostova 8y ago
> But people value Instagramming their bacon too much. You realize people enjoy bacon for the flavor, right?
- cageface 8y ago
  So if an alien race far superior to our own arrived on earth tomorrow and started having humans for breakfast, just because they were tasty, you wouldn’t object right?
  - jcoffland 8y ago
    I'd be more interested in their recipes.
  - zelon88 8y ago
    If they're smart enough to subdue me and my entire civilization using technology unfathomable to my puny human mind then I guess I don't really get a say and it doesn't matter what I think anyway, now does it? There's an analogy to livestock in there if you look hard enough.
    - spraak 8y ago
      So if intelligence is the marker, is it ok to manipulate mentally handicapped people?
      - zelon88 8y ago
        We're not talking about marginal intelligence difference. You're making the exception the rule. We're talking different species here. The food chain applies and if you're not at the top there's no advocate built into nature for you. You're a commodity and the only thing securing your survival is your value and the responsibility of the species above you.
  - natalyarostova 8y ago
    Of course I would. Do you think my lack of objection somehow shows a moral inconsistency? I think you do -- but that's only true if you project a very rigid and symmetrical concept of moral intuition on to me, which I promise you I don't hold.
squeaky-clean 8y ago
> But people value Instagramming their bacon too much. ...Yeah pretty sure that's not the reason. Vegetarian meals are usually more colorful and better for photos, bacon is a very boring photo. It's the taste. Tempeh is a decent bacon substitute, beans are not. I feel like I'm missing some sarcasm here or something.
- cageface 8y ago
  If you consider for a second if your breakfast taste preferences really justify the abuse and killing of an animal at least as intelligent as a dog, you might broaden your horizons enough to discover that there are plenty of delicious things you can eat for breakfast that don’t come with that black bill attached.
  - spraak 8y ago
    HN hivemind is triggered! Thanks for spreading awareness (I'm vegan btw)
    - squeaky-clean 8y ago
      This isn't spreading awareness, this is how you make people sick of your cause. This is like the angry preacher who goes down to college campuses and yells that sex is the devil. After enough missing-the-point, anyone not on your side gives up listening or actively assumes anything else you say is also missing the point.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - squeaky-clean 8y ago
    I'm not defending eating meat here. All I'm saying is you might want to broaden your own horizons as to why people eat it. To pretend things like taste don't exist makes your argument disingenuous and makes anyone likely to dismiss your arguments right away. If you're going to boil it down so simply, there are cruelty free sources of meat, and since you choose to ignore that and your only argument is cruelty... I'm just going to ignore everything else you say, because the one area I do understand, I understand you're making stuff up about.

pajaroide 8y ago

There are tons of easy alternatives for vegetable protein, including good old lentils, beans, chickpeas, etc. You don't have to go out of your way to buy tempeh or gourmet vegetarian food.

jniedrauer 8y ago
Hitting high protein or low carb macros is difficult without some kind of protein supplement. I'm currently targeting 50% fat, 25% protein, 25% carbs for endurance reasons. Of course this isn't applicable to everyone. But it is applicable to anyone who needs to keep carbs low for health reasons, or anyone with some kind of athletic hobby. Also bear in mind that not all protein is created equal. If wheat gluten wasn't low in lysine, I'd eat a lot more of it.
- oftenwrong 8y ago
  So, basically: 1. "healthy" doesn't mean living a long life free of ailments. It means achieving your standard of athletic performance as a hobby. 2. "challenging" doesn't mean difficult. It means doing some research, buying more tempeh at once and maybe freezing it, or just buying a protein supplement.
  - jniedrauer 8y ago
    > "challenging" doesn't mean difficult. It means doing some research, buying That's already too much. I can do that, and you can do that. Our jobs are to research things and then implement them. Most people will not or can not do this. Expecting them to is a waste of time. The way to solve this would be to de-incentivize meat production on the supply side, and encourage food distributors to fortify food with micronutrients that are commonly missing in vegetarian diets (vitamin B12, calcium, etc). Anything short of this is not going to do much except turn people off from being vegetarian.
    - oftenwrong 8y ago
      I just want to make sure I am clear on the argument you are making. Are you saying the average person can't easily be healthy without meat? That it would require them to do research? That it is easier for them to be healthy on meat-including diet without doing any research? I agree that none of this matters as long as people can eat meat. They will if they can.