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> No one should be helping creating life if they are not open to at least basic contact with the human beings they have created. The system is anonymous exactl

> No one should be helping creating life if they are not open to at least basic contact with the human beings they have created. The system is anonymous exactly because people like the one you're replying to are willing to help provide the biological material and nothing more. Requiring communication with a person that, beyond DNA, is a complete wildcard seems like a steep barrier to donation that would significantly decline overall donations.

robhunter 7y ago
That's my point - providing the biological material and nothing more is inherently unethical. I would encourage you to look at some of the research - 70%+ of "anonymous" sperm donors are actually open to contact with their genetic offspring. Optimizing for the health and welfare of intended parents while ignoring the well-being of the actual human beings that are created is incredibly short-sighted. A decrease in the overall amount of donations is a significantly smaller problem than the pain and risk created by anonymous donations (that are, as I've said, no longer anonymous because of the existence of these websites).
- gknoy 7y ago
  > providing the biological material and nothing more is inherently unethical. Why is it inherently unethical? Donors are willing to provide a good/service, and part of the price is sometimes their anonymity. (I am sure many don't mind either way.) I'm not sure that anonymous donation is _possible_ anymore, given DNA testing, but even if it were, I don't see how being willing to donate is unethical if one wanted to stay anonymous.
  - robhunter 7y ago
    Article 7 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of a Child asserts that everyone has a right to know their genetic origin. Intentionally depriving someone of that right through anonymous donation is unethical. On a broader level, I believe that taking an action that causes no harm to oneself but causes harm upon another person is unethical. Wanting to stay anonymous has a harmful effect on the actual human beings being created here - I can cite research and/or hundreds of anecdotal conversations and relationships I have had with real-life people conceived this way.
    - gjs278 7y ago
      yawn. and pray tell, what is the UN going to do about it?
    - logifail 7y ago
      > Article 7 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of a Child asserts that everyone has a right to know their genetic origin. Source, please, since that's not what it says at https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crc.aspx https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crc.aspx
      - robhunter 7y ago
        "the right to know and be cared for by his or her parents."
        Alupis 7y ago
        It clearly does not say biological parents. A parent can simply be a "caregiver of the offspring in their own species"[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent
        robhunter 7y ago
        The very first "type" of parent listed in the Wikipedia article you're citing are biological parents.
    - kelnos 7y ago
      > Article 7 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of a Child asserts that everyone has a right to know their genetic origin. No, it doesn't. The child has a right to "know his or her parents". It does not specifically state "biological" parents. Parents are the people who raise you and are legally responsible for you. > I believe that taking an action that causes no harm to oneself but causes harm upon another person is unethical. I agree with that statement in general, but don't see how this applies. If someone donates sperm anonymously, that anonymity does not cause harm to any child conceived with that sperm. That child may later really want to know where their genes come from, but that's not harm. If the offspring feels some sort of anguish over this, that's a self-inflicted harm. Having said all that, I would really prefer that couples with severe fertility issues would instead adopt. Arguably the planet is already overpopulated, and there are plenty of unwanted kids who need parents. But I'm also one of those people who doesn't understand how people feel the need that they must reproduce, so clearly I'm missing something that the mainstream believes.
  - tathougies 7y ago
    Your family is not a good/service. You are not simply providing 'material', you are providing an entire legacy. This is not just philosophical. Scientific studies show that children of anonymous donation are at higher risk of negative outcomes than other groups: https://slate.com/human-interest/2010/06/new-study-shows-sperm-donor-kids-suffer.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2010/06/new-study-shows-spe... The link with depression is especially troubling given that a history of family depression typically makes a man ineligible to be a sperm donor.
  - danbolt 7y ago
    I'm not in such a position, but if I wanted to learn about my ancestry and the source of my conception was reduced to someone else's anonymous transaction I think I'd be quite upset.
  - ssivark 7y ago
    Interesting discussion, even though some responses are emotionally charged, understandably :-) IMHO, the key ethical question is, how can a person (the child in question) be made party to a contract in which they have no input? Is it unreasonable to give them full/veto choice over the matter of contacting genetic parents -- because that is the only place in the story where they have any agency? Donors & receivers have full agency at the point of exchange. Further, if one is willing to conceptually agree that a child might have needs/rights beyond what parents (either adoptive or biological) might be willing to provide for, then one is necessarily led to seek & consider data on possible harms (emotional or otherwise) to children who do not have the choice to contact their biological parents.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
tathougies 7y ago
Scientific studies show that creating a child with your genetic material while systematically denying them any chance to meet you results in poorer outcomes. Children from anonymous donation are at higher risk for drugs, depression, crime, etc.

robhunter 7y ago

That's my point - providing the biological material and nothing more is inherently unethical. I would encourage you to look at some of the research - 70%+ of "anonymous" sperm donors are actually open to contact with their genetic offspring. Optimizing for the health and welfare of intended parents while ignoring the well-being of the actual human beings that are created is incredibly short-sighted. A decrease in the overall amount of donations is a significantly smaller problem than the pain and risk created by anonymous donations (that are, as I've said, no longer anonymous because of the existence of these websites).

gknoy 7y ago
> providing the biological material and nothing more is inherently unethical. Why is it inherently unethical? Donors are willing to provide a good/service, and part of the price is sometimes their anonymity. (I am sure many don't mind either way.) I'm not sure that anonymous donation is _possible_ anymore, given DNA testing, but even if it were, I don't see how being willing to donate is unethical if one wanted to stay anonymous.
- robhunter 7y ago
  Article 7 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of a Child asserts that everyone has a right to know their genetic origin. Intentionally depriving someone of that right through anonymous donation is unethical. On a broader level, I believe that taking an action that causes no harm to oneself but causes harm upon another person is unethical. Wanting to stay anonymous has a harmful effect on the actual human beings being created here - I can cite research and/or hundreds of anecdotal conversations and relationships I have had with real-life people conceived this way.
  - gjs278 7y ago
    yawn. and pray tell, what is the UN going to do about it?
  - logifail 7y ago
    > Article 7 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of a Child asserts that everyone has a right to know their genetic origin. Source, please, since that's not what it says at https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crc.aspx https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crc.aspx
    - robhunter 7y ago
      "the right to know and be cared for by his or her parents."
      - Alupis 7y ago
        It clearly does not say biological parents. A parent can simply be a "caregiver of the offspring in their own species"[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent
        robhunter 7y ago
        The very first "type" of parent listed in the Wikipedia article you're citing are biological parents.
  - kelnos 7y ago
    > Article 7 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of a Child asserts that everyone has a right to know their genetic origin. No, it doesn't. The child has a right to "know his or her parents". It does not specifically state "biological" parents. Parents are the people who raise you and are legally responsible for you. > I believe that taking an action that causes no harm to oneself but causes harm upon another person is unethical. I agree with that statement in general, but don't see how this applies. If someone donates sperm anonymously, that anonymity does not cause harm to any child conceived with that sperm. That child may later really want to know where their genes come from, but that's not harm. If the offspring feels some sort of anguish over this, that's a self-inflicted harm. Having said all that, I would really prefer that couples with severe fertility issues would instead adopt. Arguably the planet is already overpopulated, and there are plenty of unwanted kids who need parents. But I'm also one of those people who doesn't understand how people feel the need that they must reproduce, so clearly I'm missing something that the mainstream believes.
- tathougies 7y ago
  Your family is not a good/service. You are not simply providing 'material', you are providing an entire legacy. This is not just philosophical. Scientific studies show that children of anonymous donation are at higher risk of negative outcomes than other groups: https://slate.com/human-interest/2010/06/new-study-shows-sperm-donor-kids-suffer.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2010/06/new-study-shows-spe... The link with depression is especially troubling given that a history of family depression typically makes a man ineligible to be a sperm donor.
- danbolt 7y ago
  I'm not in such a position, but if I wanted to learn about my ancestry and the source of my conception was reduced to someone else's anonymous transaction I think I'd be quite upset.
- ssivark 7y ago
  Interesting discussion, even though some responses are emotionally charged, understandably :-) IMHO, the key ethical question is, how can a person (the child in question) be made party to a contract in which they have no input? Is it unreasonable to give them full/veto choice over the matter of contacting genetic parents -- because that is the only place in the story where they have any agency? Donors & receivers have full agency at the point of exchange. Further, if one is willing to conceptually agree that a child might have needs/rights beyond what parents (either adoptive or biological) might be willing to provide for, then one is necessarily led to seek & consider data on possible harms (emotional or otherwise) to children who do not have the choice to contact their biological parents.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

tathougies 7y ago

Scientific studies show that creating a child with your genetic material while systematically denying them any chance to meet you results in poorer outcomes. Children from anonymous donation are at higher risk for drugs, depression, crime, etc.