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The good old 2015 MacBook Pro keyboards were super nice. Why change a winning formula? Was it the quest for ever thinner laptop bodies?

meritt 7y ago
Apple has a lot of hardware design employees who need something to do.
- draw_down 7y ago
  Yes, I'm sure they were all just sitting around drumming their fingers on a table until Tim Cook walked in and told them to make keyboards that break super easily.
cletus 7y ago
Literally to reduce thickness by 0.5mm. It's said that design is the art of compromise and that perfection is the enemy of the good. Unfortunately, Apple seems to have largely forgotten this. The 12" Macbook was a perfect example of this: in the quest for thinness, it was simply too much compromise. The 13" Macbook Air (2011+) was, to me, basically a perfect laptop. Powerful enough for most needs, light enough for most needs and not too expensive. I feel completely differently if a $1000 laptop dies or is lost or stolen vs a $4000 laptop. The USB-C debacle is another example of this. Instead of a laptop that does basically everything you now need to carry a dock or dongle or set of cables instead. How does this make sense? And let's not forget that we lost MagSafe with this too. Sometimes I just want to throw my Macbook out the window.
- javagram 7y ago
  At least with USB-C in the future, ideally all cables will become USB-C and the adapter will no longer be needed. I don’t know if this future will actually happen but would be nice. Losing MagSafe is a bummer though.
  - lloeki 7y ago
    I just picked up a couple USB-C to USB-A/-B/mini/micro cables for my external devices at a ridiculously irrelevant price and threw away the old ones in a box. No more dongles for me. The number of times I needed (or be willing to, random USB keys just don’t get to touch my computer) to plug in a foreign device during the last three years (even before I was provided a new MBP three months ago) is exactly zero.
- srrr 7y ago
  A 14 inch Thinkpad X1 Carbon is as light, has the same thickness, all the ports you need, double the processing power, AND has a really good long travel keayboard. Maybe Apple made a compromise. But if other companies can build the same laptop without compromise Apple must do better.
  - cletus 7y ago
    It also has serious quality issues [1]. I've seen the X1 and it's nice but, honestly, I've yet to see anything that compares to the Macbook tracpad, even the latest one that fakes haptic feedback. [1] https://www.tomshardware.com/news/lenovo-laptop-quality-control-issues,37510.html https://www.tomshardware.com/news/lenovo-laptop-quality-cont...
    - srrr 7y ago
      Maybe. I do not have these problems. But if something happens I am sure Lenovo will honor my 3 year on site support contract with them. I don't have to send the notebook to them and I don't have to go to a genius bar with an appointment. They just come to me this or the next day and fix the problem. You can always get a bad device. Happened to me with a faulty MacBook Display too. What matters in this case is the service contract you have with the manufacturer. And some companies have stellar service if you pay for it.
      - rayiner 7y ago
        I've got an X1 carbon that developed bad pixels. (Anecdata I know, but I've never had an Apple device, out of more tha na dozen over a decade, with a bad screen, while every Lenovo machine I've ever had, five now, has some level of bad Q&A with the screen, usually backlight bleed.) They replaced the panel on-site, which was good, but not the bezel (which is a sticker and is now peeling off slightly from having been peeled off and reattached).
  - cturner 7y ago
    The macbook (not air) is a bit over ten percent lighter than the x1. I don't think it is worth it, for reasons you name, and run x1s myself. Still, Apple does offer the lightest ultrabook on the market, and it may derive from the nasty keyboard tradeoff.
- intertextuality 7y ago
  Forget the usb-c dongle issues, my main concern is the magsafe lock. How could something so fundamental like that be removed?
  - lloeki 7y ago
    I’r rather be able to change the cord as I see fit and use any spec compliant charger than be tied to MagSafe chargers that get chewed on by the cat and have the cord get shorter and shorter as I cut and solder a new section. To each his own. (BTW you can get MagSafe clips for USB-C, which is a testament to this standard’s modularity)
  - cletus 7y ago
    Thickness was, I believe, a factor in this. As in MagSafe 2 came about (over MagSafe 1) to reduce the depth of the socket as well as it's thickness. Many seem to have forgotten that MagSafe 2 was actually worse than the first one (eg it would fall out on its own more).
  - eridius 7y ago
    It was removed because MagSafe was quite literally the #1 source of hardware failure on those machines. It was worth it when it prevented the machine itself from taking a fatal tumble, but with power ports available on both sides of the laptop (as well as increased battery life), MagSafe is no longer worth it. If you're really intent on it, Griffin sells a MagSafe USB-C adapter - https://griffintechnology.com/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-power-cable https://griffintechnology.com/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-power...
    - asdff 7y ago
      Was it really that bad? The only time I had it fail computer-side was when I noticed a staple on the magnet. The charger itself is shit, but that's a problem with Apple's shitty wire shielding and I'm sure their USB-C charger will also split open, fray, and break every 2 years of regular use.
      - eridius 7y ago
- cageface 7y ago
  It's infuriating. I had to sell my 2017 MBP and buy a 2018 model because I wasn't in a situation where I could afford to be without a machine for a week or more. Otherwise I'd still be happily using the original machine. I was once a big evangelist for Apple laptops. Now I tell people to get something else unless they're absolutely tied to macOS. I'll definitely be taking a very hard look at other, non Apple options when this guy gives up the ghost.
- symfoniq 7y ago
  Apple doesn't sell a single computer today that isn't crippled by serious hardware limitations and pointless compromises. I've been a Mac user since the late 1980s, but Apple no longer makes anything I actually want to buy.
  - auggierose 7y ago
    What about the iMac Pro? Feels like a great machine to me without any compromises.
    - ndiscussion 7y ago
      Not the parent poster, but I already have a desktop machine with no compromises. It's a custom-built arch linux machine with the best screen, keyboard, and mouse I could buy. Desktops are solved, we don't need a savior for desktops because the modularity allows us to combine the best parts from various manufacturers. We need a savior for laptops where the keyboard, mouse, screen, and components are all embedded, and there's no way to separate them. I consider the iMac a convenient machine but it's a bit like buying a tv with a vcr built in and a keurig machine built-in too.
    - symfoniq 7y ago
      A few things: The memory and SSD can't be replaced by the user, meaning pro users are looking at potentially significant downtime if these items fail. The machine isn't serviceable at all without removing a screen attached by adhesive, a process that can cause breakage. The screen is also small by the standards of many pro users (I've not personally used a screen below 30" in years), and the design of the VESA mount is reportedly problematic. There are no Nvidia BTO options, and therefore no CUDA support. There are numerous reports of the T2 chip causing USB audio issues. The AIO design also limits the thermal headroom of an ostensibly "professional" workstation.
    - ascii_only 7y ago
      It is great product. But there are few compromises: 1. Thermals. Apple prioritized silence over performance. So they like to run cpus at high temperatures and start fans only than it is absolute necessary. It limits cpu clocks and performance. And although it has great cooling solution it worse than it could be that if it was just standard desktop. And it uses intel cpus that are pretty hot because they use older technology node. 2. CUDA. There are no nvidia support for Mojave if i am not mistaken. So there isn't support for CUDA. It should make some stuff very hard or impossible. For example ML training. 3. Price. It is very expensive. Hackintosh build including great monitor with intel + amd gpus will be twice as cheap.
- Chlorus 7y ago
  > And let's not forget that we lost MagSafe with this too. MagSafe has to have been one of the best ideas in all of personal computing, and now they've just completely abandoned it. The least Apple could do is give up their patents on it; if they're not going to use it, at least let someone else try their hand at it. It's a total pipe-dream, but wouldn't it be great if the next USB standard mandated detachable connectors? It would never happen because of cost concerns, but a man can dream.
  - chx 7y ago
    There's a kickstarter for a magnetic USB-C connector -- there has many of those, of course, but this one says it's fully compatible including Thunderbolt.
- Hamuko 7y ago
  MagSafe was nice, but I have a 20,000 mAh USB-C power bank in my bag that is able to charge my 15-inch MacBook Pro. Got an USB-C to USB-C cable for it from a random store in the mall for a reasonable price, since it had no Apple logos on the side of it. Tradeoffs.
  - eemil 7y ago
    A "pro" machine shouldn't be making these types of compromises. My last two laptops (ThinkPad 13, Dell 7490) both have the ability to charge either with the built-in charging connector or USB-C.
    - Hamuko 7y ago
      How magnetic are the built-in charging connectors in the ThinkPad and Dell?
- ksec 7y ago
  >The 12" Macbook was a perfect example of this: in the quest for thinness, it was simply too much compromise. I think you need to put it in perspective. The MacBook Retina was just like the first MacBook Air, it wasn't the best or good enough when it launched but It was designed with technology coming soon in the next 2 years, the promise of Intel 10nm in mind and WiFi 6 / 802.11ax. Both were suppose to come in 2016 / 2017. The 10nm, and its subsequent 7nm CPU would give Quad Core Intel CPU in a fanless design that is as powerful as a 2014 Quad Core MacBook Pro. And 802.11ax, 802.11ad or 802.11ay in the 60Ghz. The first would finally give Gigabit Ethernet speed in a wireless environment the 2nd ones would allow Wireless Transfer in dozens of Gbps within direct line of sight. For Macbook's target audience, those computation power was more than enough. Fast forward to now, not only Intel wont have 10nm ULP CPU in massive quantities by end of 2019, it is likely not even the same 10nm as it was originally scheduled / promised in pre 2015 meetings. WiFi 6 / 802.11ax has been met with delays after delays to the point the Working Group literally force their way out push for commercial roll out. Last time I checked their meeting notes it still has thousand of issues unresolved. Much more than all the previous Draft WiFi standards. One theory I have, was that Apple could not afford to anger, complain or make any signs of hardballing in their Mac department as they have a much bigger grand plan, to work with Intel together on the iPhone Modem and attack the Qualcomm business model. Since they have to decide their iPhone 7 Modem in Summer 2015, the thoughts and grand plan must have happen earlier, some evidence suggest this started in 2014 as it was shown in the case between Qualcomm and Apple. And it was one reason I suggest switching to ARM on Mac doesn't make sense because Apple relies too much on Intel's Modem on its iPhone. And the iPhone business is the bread and butter of Apple. Now that everything has been settled I strongly believe Apple Mac will announced their ARM move within 30 months. But this is another topic for discussion.
kmlx 7y ago
i hated those keyboards with a passion. by far the worst laptop keyboard i have ever touched. comparing the new keyboard to the old one is like comparing living on earth to the void of space.
johnchristopher 7y ago
> Was it the quest for ever thinner laptop bodies? I blame computer tech journalists and reviewers that give stars for thinness. It's a metric, a stupid and an easy one to measure.
pier25 7y ago
Probably for the same reason they replaced the tower Mac Pro (which for many is the best Mac ever made) for that trash can monstrosity. To make an engineering statement? I don't know, in both cases it was a total disaster.
wilsonnb3 7y ago
Plenty of people out there who think that the new keyboards feel much better than the old keyboards.

meritt 7y ago

Apple has a lot of hardware design employees who need something to do.

draw_down 7y ago
Yes, I'm sure they were all just sitting around drumming their fingers on a table until Tim Cook walked in and told them to make keyboards that break super easily.

cletus 7y ago

Literally to reduce thickness by 0.5mm. It's said that design is the art of compromise and that perfection is the enemy of the good. Unfortunately, Apple seems to have largely forgotten this. The 12" Macbook was a perfect example of this: in the quest for thinness, it was simply too much compromise. The 13" Macbook Air (2011+) was, to me, basically a perfect laptop. Powerful enough for most needs, light enough for most needs and not too expensive. I feel completely differently if a $1000 laptop dies or is lost or stolen vs a $4000 laptop. The USB-C debacle is another example of this. Instead of a laptop that does basically everything you now need to carry a dock or dongle or set of cables instead. How does this make sense? And let's not forget that we lost MagSafe with this too. Sometimes I just want to throw my Macbook out the window.

javagram 7y ago
At least with USB-C in the future, ideally all cables will become USB-C and the adapter will no longer be needed. I don’t know if this future will actually happen but would be nice. Losing MagSafe is a bummer though.
- lloeki 7y ago
  I just picked up a couple USB-C to USB-A/-B/mini/micro cables for my external devices at a ridiculously irrelevant price and threw away the old ones in a box. No more dongles for me. The number of times I needed (or be willing to, random USB keys just don’t get to touch my computer) to plug in a foreign device during the last three years (even before I was provided a new MBP three months ago) is exactly zero.
srrr 7y ago
A 14 inch Thinkpad X1 Carbon is as light, has the same thickness, all the ports you need, double the processing power, AND has a really good long travel keayboard. Maybe Apple made a compromise. But if other companies can build the same laptop without compromise Apple must do better.
- cletus 7y ago
  It also has serious quality issues [1]. I've seen the X1 and it's nice but, honestly, I've yet to see anything that compares to the Macbook tracpad, even the latest one that fakes haptic feedback. [1] https://www.tomshardware.com/news/lenovo-laptop-quality-control-issues,37510.html https://www.tomshardware.com/news/lenovo-laptop-quality-cont...
  - srrr 7y ago
    Maybe. I do not have these problems. But if something happens I am sure Lenovo will honor my 3 year on site support contract with them. I don't have to send the notebook to them and I don't have to go to a genius bar with an appointment. They just come to me this or the next day and fix the problem. You can always get a bad device. Happened to me with a faulty MacBook Display too. What matters in this case is the service contract you have with the manufacturer. And some companies have stellar service if you pay for it.
    - rayiner 7y ago
      I've got an X1 carbon that developed bad pixels. (Anecdata I know, but I've never had an Apple device, out of more tha na dozen over a decade, with a bad screen, while every Lenovo machine I've ever had, five now, has some level of bad Q&A with the screen, usually backlight bleed.) They replaced the panel on-site, which was good, but not the bezel (which is a sticker and is now peeling off slightly from having been peeled off and reattached).
- cturner 7y ago
  The macbook (not air) is a bit over ten percent lighter than the x1. I don't think it is worth it, for reasons you name, and run x1s myself. Still, Apple does offer the lightest ultrabook on the market, and it may derive from the nasty keyboard tradeoff.
intertextuality 7y ago
Forget the usb-c dongle issues, my main concern is the magsafe lock. How could something so fundamental like that be removed?
- lloeki 7y ago
  I’r rather be able to change the cord as I see fit and use any spec compliant charger than be tied to MagSafe chargers that get chewed on by the cat and have the cord get shorter and shorter as I cut and solder a new section. To each his own. (BTW you can get MagSafe clips for USB-C, which is a testament to this standard’s modularity)
- cletus 7y ago
  Thickness was, I believe, a factor in this. As in MagSafe 2 came about (over MagSafe 1) to reduce the depth of the socket as well as it's thickness. Many seem to have forgotten that MagSafe 2 was actually worse than the first one (eg it would fall out on its own more).
- eridius 7y ago
  It was removed because MagSafe was quite literally the #1 source of hardware failure on those machines. It was worth it when it prevented the machine itself from taking a fatal tumble, but with power ports available on both sides of the laptop (as well as increased battery life), MagSafe is no longer worth it. If you're really intent on it, Griffin sells a MagSafe USB-C adapter - https://griffintechnology.com/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-power-cable https://griffintechnology.com/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-power...
  - asdff 7y ago
    Was it really that bad? The only time I had it fail computer-side was when I noticed a staple on the magnet. The charger itself is shit, but that's a problem with Apple's shitty wire shielding and I'm sure their USB-C charger will also split open, fray, and break every 2 years of regular use.
    - eridius 7y ago
cageface 7y ago
It's infuriating. I had to sell my 2017 MBP and buy a 2018 model because I wasn't in a situation where I could afford to be without a machine for a week or more. Otherwise I'd still be happily using the original machine. I was once a big evangelist for Apple laptops. Now I tell people to get something else unless they're absolutely tied to macOS. I'll definitely be taking a very hard look at other, non Apple options when this guy gives up the ghost.
symfoniq 7y ago
Apple doesn't sell a single computer today that isn't crippled by serious hardware limitations and pointless compromises. I've been a Mac user since the late 1980s, but Apple no longer makes anything I actually want to buy.
- auggierose 7y ago
  What about the iMac Pro? Feels like a great machine to me without any compromises.
  - ndiscussion 7y ago
    Not the parent poster, but I already have a desktop machine with no compromises. It's a custom-built arch linux machine with the best screen, keyboard, and mouse I could buy. Desktops are solved, we don't need a savior for desktops because the modularity allows us to combine the best parts from various manufacturers. We need a savior for laptops where the keyboard, mouse, screen, and components are all embedded, and there's no way to separate them. I consider the iMac a convenient machine but it's a bit like buying a tv with a vcr built in and a keurig machine built-in too.
  - symfoniq 7y ago
    A few things: The memory and SSD can't be replaced by the user, meaning pro users are looking at potentially significant downtime if these items fail. The machine isn't serviceable at all without removing a screen attached by adhesive, a process that can cause breakage. The screen is also small by the standards of many pro users (I've not personally used a screen below 30" in years), and the design of the VESA mount is reportedly problematic. There are no Nvidia BTO options, and therefore no CUDA support. There are numerous reports of the T2 chip causing USB audio issues. The AIO design also limits the thermal headroom of an ostensibly "professional" workstation.
  - ascii_only 7y ago
    It is great product. But there are few compromises: 1. Thermals. Apple prioritized silence over performance. So they like to run cpus at high temperatures and start fans only than it is absolute necessary. It limits cpu clocks and performance. And although it has great cooling solution it worse than it could be that if it was just standard desktop. And it uses intel cpus that are pretty hot because they use older technology node. 2. CUDA. There are no nvidia support for Mojave if i am not mistaken. So there isn't support for CUDA. It should make some stuff very hard or impossible. For example ML training. 3. Price. It is very expensive. Hackintosh build including great monitor with intel + amd gpus will be twice as cheap.
Chlorus 7y ago
> And let's not forget that we lost MagSafe with this too. MagSafe has to have been one of the best ideas in all of personal computing, and now they've just completely abandoned it. The least Apple could do is give up their patents on it; if they're not going to use it, at least let someone else try their hand at it. It's a total pipe-dream, but wouldn't it be great if the next USB standard mandated detachable connectors? It would never happen because of cost concerns, but a man can dream.
- chx 7y ago
  There's a kickstarter for a magnetic USB-C connector -- there has many of those, of course, but this one says it's fully compatible including Thunderbolt.
Hamuko 7y ago
MagSafe was nice, but I have a 20,000 mAh USB-C power bank in my bag that is able to charge my 15-inch MacBook Pro. Got an USB-C to USB-C cable for it from a random store in the mall for a reasonable price, since it had no Apple logos on the side of it. Tradeoffs.
- eemil 7y ago
  A "pro" machine shouldn't be making these types of compromises. My last two laptops (ThinkPad 13, Dell 7490) both have the ability to charge either with the built-in charging connector or USB-C.
  - Hamuko 7y ago
    How magnetic are the built-in charging connectors in the ThinkPad and Dell?
ksec 7y ago
>The 12" Macbook was a perfect example of this: in the quest for thinness, it was simply too much compromise. I think you need to put it in perspective. The MacBook Retina was just like the first MacBook Air, it wasn't the best or good enough when it launched but It was designed with technology coming soon in the next 2 years, the promise of Intel 10nm in mind and WiFi 6 / 802.11ax. Both were suppose to come in 2016 / 2017. The 10nm, and its subsequent 7nm CPU would give Quad Core Intel CPU in a fanless design that is as powerful as a 2014 Quad Core MacBook Pro. And 802.11ax, 802.11ad or 802.11ay in the 60Ghz. The first would finally give Gigabit Ethernet speed in a wireless environment the 2nd ones would allow Wireless Transfer in dozens of Gbps within direct line of sight. For Macbook's target audience, those computation power was more than enough. Fast forward to now, not only Intel wont have 10nm ULP CPU in massive quantities by end of 2019, it is likely not even the same 10nm as it was originally scheduled / promised in pre 2015 meetings. WiFi 6 / 802.11ax has been met with delays after delays to the point the Working Group literally force their way out push for commercial roll out. Last time I checked their meeting notes it still has thousand of issues unresolved. Much more than all the previous Draft WiFi standards. One theory I have, was that Apple could not afford to anger, complain or make any signs of hardballing in their Mac department as they have a much bigger grand plan, to work with Intel together on the iPhone Modem and attack the Qualcomm business model. Since they have to decide their iPhone 7 Modem in Summer 2015, the thoughts and grand plan must have happen earlier, some evidence suggest this started in 2014 as it was shown in the case between Qualcomm and Apple. And it was one reason I suggest switching to ARM on Mac doesn't make sense because Apple relies too much on Intel's Modem on its iPhone. And the iPhone business is the bread and butter of Apple. Now that everything has been settled I strongly believe Apple Mac will announced their ARM move within 30 months. But this is another topic for discussion.

kmlx 7y ago

i hated those keyboards with a passion. by far the worst laptop keyboard i have ever touched. comparing the new keyboard to the old one is like comparing living on earth to the void of space.

johnchristopher 7y ago

> Was it the quest for ever thinner laptop bodies? I blame computer tech journalists and reviewers that give stars for thinness. It's a metric, a stupid and an easy one to measure.

pier25 7y ago

Probably for the same reason they replaced the tower Mac Pro (which for many is the best Mac ever made) for that trash can monstrosity. To make an engineering statement? I don't know, in both cases it was a total disaster.

wilsonnb3 7y ago

Plenty of people out there who think that the new keyboards feel much better than the old keyboards.