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Over the past few months I've been studying mushin (no mind) with the goal of understanding the concept better, and possibly laying out proactive steps one can

Over the past few months I've been studying mushin (no mind) with the goal of understanding the concept better, and possibly laying out proactive steps one can take to put themselves in a position to experience mushin. I'm about 70% through all the readings (Unfettered Mind, Zen in the Art of Archery, Kakusei-Mushin, some Alan Watts videos on the subject, some Zen Koan videos, and more). So far, it's very evident that the feeling of being in a "flow state" or "just doing it" is not something that simply happens out of nowhere. A precursor to that mind state is rigorous training and practice. Zen in the Art of Archery is a great read for getting a grasp on this concept. Basically, your goal is to perform without any thought, having a clear mind without any judgments or intentions, to the point in which you become one with the action/goal (anyone who has played sports may have experienced those games in which you almost black out during a great scoring streak, not even recognizing what's happening in the moment). BUT, to get to that point, you need to learn all the proper movements and formations and build muscle memory, which requires a ton of intentional thought and analysis. Basically, you need to learn as a stepping stone to unlearning.

sdrothrock 7y ago
I used to do kendo, which has a big focus on mushin. > BUT, to get to that point, you need to learn all the proper movements and formations and build muscle memory, which requires a ton of intentional thought and analysis. This is exactly it. You need a lot of practice ("perfect practice makes perfect") to lay a foundation where everything you do can be done well and properly even when done unconsciously. My personal theory is that once you have your fundamentals embedded at an unconscious level, it becomes simpler to enter a flow state (mushin) because there are fewer extraneous thoughts bothering you while you consciously focus on a task -- all of the little pieces of the task are "unconscious" and you don't have to worry about doing them properly, so then you can progress to embedding the next level of fundamentals.
theseadroid 7y ago
As an Asian, after watching the movie Free Solo (and Alex Honnold's Ted talk), I think he gets mushin.
- bogle 7y ago
  Rock climbing is [citation needed, as they say] one of the easiest activities in which to attain flow. It's an all body activity. It requires a host of tiny techniques that are best learnt by doing. It takes practice. To perform well requires a calm mind, even when the consequences of failure are evident which naturally triggers a disturbed mind.
  - oftenwrong 7y ago
    I would agree. It is harder to get into "flow" mind-state when traditional or aid climbing. You need to stop to think when placing protection unless it's a very straightforward placement. In general, the more you run it out, the more time you can spend in "flow", although obviously there are potentially high consequences, and your mind will be screaming at you if you are, say, dangerously run out above a ledge, or if you placed protection absent-mindedly and now you are second-guessing how much you trust it. Free soloing is the extreme end of that: maximum flow potential, maximum consequences. Top roping is probably the best bang-for-your-buck in this regard: maximum flow potential, minimum consequences.
  - AndrasL 7y ago
    I've found acroyoga or other variants of partner acrobatics amongst the easiest activities to get into a flow state. I think it's because there is lot of novelty, a high-perception of risk (although is actually quite safe), and a high requirement for coordination. I would describe it as literally forcing you into the moment. Whereas when I run, practice yoga, lift weights etc., my mind is elsewhere.
    - tonyarkles 7y ago
      This is super interesting! I might have to see what the AcroYoga scene is like around town. This may sound a bit weird, but sports with "mandatory flow" really appeal to me. Snowboarding being the canonical example I use when I talk about this. I'm by no means as expert snowboarder, and when I'm doing it I have to be 100% in the moment. The sport has a great physical feedback loop for me: if I allow myself to be distracted, there is an immediate violent reminder (as I wipe out). Krav Maga has this too, although its more bursty (lose focus during a drill, accidental hits happen) Thanks for the suggestion!
tiku 7y ago
You should read the book "Flow" by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, titled: Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience. He claims that Flow is (more easily) achieved when Skill level and Challenge level are both very high.
- DisruptiveDave 7y ago
  Added to the list, thanks.
- HuShifang 7y ago
  A bit more of a deep dive, but stuff on Daoism (esp. Zhuangzi) might be a nice complement too -- it influenced Zen (or Chan, as it was called in its original Chinese form). And not coincidentally, Mihalyi's son Mark works mainly on Daoism at UC Berkeley.
- bumby 7y ago
  If I remember correctly, it's not that the skill level needs to be high, but that the task has to be difficult enough to be challenging without being so difficult as to be daunting. So you can still reach a flow state as a low-skill person as long as you flirt with the limits to your own skill level without getting frustrated (i.e. being highly skilled is not necessarily a prerequisite to be fully engrossed and challenged).
bpyne 7y ago
I'm glad you made this comment. The article's author made wu-wei sound like "do whatever comes natural". But, that misses the thousands of hours of deliberate practice bringing you to wu-wei.
maury91 7y ago
I black out very often when doing something repetitive when I used to drive during my commute I often blacked out for the entire commute and wake up after parking (The first time was quite scary). It also happens when cooking, running, walking, anything that doesn't require to think about something new if it's something I have already done in the past I can do it without thinking at all.
- Reedx 7y ago
  I assume you don't mean black out literally... Otherwise what you're describing is Automaticity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaticity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaticity
  - maury91 7y ago
    Yes not literal black out, more like a time black out. Usually I'm thinking about something, and by the time I finish thinking about that particular subject more time than expected has passed (usually it feels like one minute), and I don't remember driving or walking
  - joncrane 7y ago
    "Black out" is always shorthand for "not recording memories." It's not necessarily dangerous, it just means the mind is not recording events to long term storage.
brm 7y ago
The flow state of great athletes is not the type of autopilot you describe exactly, it’s not a totally automatic function. If you look at their comments it’s actually a state of hyperfocus. They may get there in a similar way to what you describe but the space they go to looks different than what you’re describing. “The rim gets bigger” if you will. The game slows down and becomes easier. They’re so in the moment that everything narrows, yes, but it’s that that makes decisions easier, the information they need is simply hyper available. Ask someone like Tiger Woods where the pin was or what the wind was doing on the 12th hole on a specific course during a win 15 years ago and he can tell you that. He can also tell you where contact was on the club face. Same goes for LeBron and others. It’s not that decisions are made by your body or muscle memory etc it’s that the decisions you need to make become easier to make.
- DisruptiveDave 7y ago
  I don't know if I fully agree with that, particularly the memory part of it. Certain people just have those types of memories that are not necessarily tied to flow states/moments. (see Lebron[1], see Sean McVay[2]). I don't think you're wrong in the way you describe how the game slows down, targets get larger, and decisions get easier to make. I think where we differ is your use of "the information they need is simply hyper available" vs. my take that this information resides in the subconscious and our natural feeling to analyze our actions/strategy in-game actually gets in the way of letting our subconscious take over. Perhaps we're arguing semantics here? [1] https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/05/lebron-james-photographic-memory https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/05/lebron-james-photographic-m... [2] https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/12/rams-sean-mcvay-remembers-plays-detail https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/12/rams-sean-mcvay-remembers-...
  - ksdale 7y ago
    I played running back on my high school football team and based on my personal experience, I would say that on really good nights, when I achieved something that I would consider "flow state," it was closer to the information I needed being hyper available. I agree with you completely that my ability to move the right way existed in my subconcious all the time, but when I got into a flow state, it felt like the thing that changed was my interpretation of the world. It would seem like the defense was moving more slowly, and like I was way more easily able to predict how fast they would get to a certain place and whether I could get there first, and when I got touched, I knew how to shift my body to minimize my chance of being tackled. And those nights, I always rushed for a lot more yards than the nights that I didn't feel that way. As I'm describing it, it sounds like it might just be about semantics, haha! Maybe on those nights, I just let myself not think about it, somehow. As a high schooler, I was certainly not intrspective enough about it to turn it on and off, though. But at least from my own subjective experience of those moments, it felt more like my perception of the world actually changed (almost like being on drugs), rather than that I was just calmly doing something I'd practiced a bunch of times, if that makes sense.
rogual 7y ago
Another recommendation: for musicians, Kenny Werner's "Effortless Mastery" talks about this as applied to playing piano.

sdrothrock 7y ago

I used to do kendo, which has a big focus on mushin. > BUT, to get to that point, you need to learn all the proper movements and formations and build muscle memory, which requires a ton of intentional thought and analysis. This is exactly it. You need a lot of practice ("perfect practice makes perfect") to lay a foundation where everything you do can be done well and properly even when done unconsciously. My personal theory is that once you have your fundamentals embedded at an unconscious level, it becomes simpler to enter a flow state (mushin) because there are fewer extraneous thoughts bothering you while you consciously focus on a task -- all of the little pieces of the task are "unconscious" and you don't have to worry about doing them properly, so then you can progress to embedding the next level of fundamentals.

theseadroid 7y ago

As an Asian, after watching the movie Free Solo (and Alex Honnold's Ted talk), I think he gets mushin.

bogle 7y ago
Rock climbing is [citation needed, as they say] one of the easiest activities in which to attain flow. It's an all body activity. It requires a host of tiny techniques that are best learnt by doing. It takes practice. To perform well requires a calm mind, even when the consequences of failure are evident which naturally triggers a disturbed mind.
- oftenwrong 7y ago
  I would agree. It is harder to get into "flow" mind-state when traditional or aid climbing. You need to stop to think when placing protection unless it's a very straightforward placement. In general, the more you run it out, the more time you can spend in "flow", although obviously there are potentially high consequences, and your mind will be screaming at you if you are, say, dangerously run out above a ledge, or if you placed protection absent-mindedly and now you are second-guessing how much you trust it. Free soloing is the extreme end of that: maximum flow potential, maximum consequences. Top roping is probably the best bang-for-your-buck in this regard: maximum flow potential, minimum consequences.
- AndrasL 7y ago
  I've found acroyoga or other variants of partner acrobatics amongst the easiest activities to get into a flow state. I think it's because there is lot of novelty, a high-perception of risk (although is actually quite safe), and a high requirement for coordination. I would describe it as literally forcing you into the moment. Whereas when I run, practice yoga, lift weights etc., my mind is elsewhere.
  - tonyarkles 7y ago
    This is super interesting! I might have to see what the AcroYoga scene is like around town. This may sound a bit weird, but sports with "mandatory flow" really appeal to me. Snowboarding being the canonical example I use when I talk about this. I'm by no means as expert snowboarder, and when I'm doing it I have to be 100% in the moment. The sport has a great physical feedback loop for me: if I allow myself to be distracted, there is an immediate violent reminder (as I wipe out). Krav Maga has this too, although its more bursty (lose focus during a drill, accidental hits happen) Thanks for the suggestion!

tiku 7y ago

You should read the book "Flow" by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, titled: Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience. He claims that Flow is (more easily) achieved when Skill level and Challenge level are both very high.

DisruptiveDave 7y ago
Added to the list, thanks.
HuShifang 7y ago
A bit more of a deep dive, but stuff on Daoism (esp. Zhuangzi) might be a nice complement too -- it influenced Zen (or Chan, as it was called in its original Chinese form). And not coincidentally, Mihalyi's son Mark works mainly on Daoism at UC Berkeley.
bumby 7y ago
If I remember correctly, it's not that the skill level needs to be high, but that the task has to be difficult enough to be challenging without being so difficult as to be daunting. So you can still reach a flow state as a low-skill person as long as you flirt with the limits to your own skill level without getting frustrated (i.e. being highly skilled is not necessarily a prerequisite to be fully engrossed and challenged).

bpyne 7y ago

I'm glad you made this comment. The article's author made wu-wei sound like "do whatever comes natural". But, that misses the thousands of hours of deliberate practice bringing you to wu-wei.

maury91 7y ago

I black out very often when doing something repetitive when I used to drive during my commute I often blacked out for the entire commute and wake up after parking (The first time was quite scary). It also happens when cooking, running, walking, anything that doesn't require to think about something new if it's something I have already done in the past I can do it without thinking at all.

Reedx 7y ago
I assume you don't mean black out literally... Otherwise what you're describing is Automaticity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaticity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaticity
- maury91 7y ago
  Yes not literal black out, more like a time black out. Usually I'm thinking about something, and by the time I finish thinking about that particular subject more time than expected has passed (usually it feels like one minute), and I don't remember driving or walking
- joncrane 7y ago
  "Black out" is always shorthand for "not recording memories." It's not necessarily dangerous, it just means the mind is not recording events to long term storage.

brm 7y ago

The flow state of great athletes is not the type of autopilot you describe exactly, it’s not a totally automatic function. If you look at their comments it’s actually a state of hyperfocus. They may get there in a similar way to what you describe but the space they go to looks different than what you’re describing. “The rim gets bigger” if you will. The game slows down and becomes easier. They’re so in the moment that everything narrows, yes, but it’s that that makes decisions easier, the information they need is simply hyper available. Ask someone like Tiger Woods where the pin was or what the wind was doing on the 12th hole on a specific course during a win 15 years ago and he can tell you that. He can also tell you where contact was on the club face. Same goes for LeBron and others. It’s not that decisions are made by your body or muscle memory etc it’s that the decisions you need to make become easier to make.

DisruptiveDave 7y ago
I don't know if I fully agree with that, particularly the memory part of it. Certain people just have those types of memories that are not necessarily tied to flow states/moments. (see Lebron[1], see Sean McVay[2]). I don't think you're wrong in the way you describe how the game slows down, targets get larger, and decisions get easier to make. I think where we differ is your use of "the information they need is simply hyper available" vs. my take that this information resides in the subconscious and our natural feeling to analyze our actions/strategy in-game actually gets in the way of letting our subconscious take over. Perhaps we're arguing semantics here? [1] https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/05/lebron-james-photographic-memory https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/05/lebron-james-photographic-m... [2] https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/12/rams-sean-mcvay-remembers-plays-detail https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/12/rams-sean-mcvay-remembers-...
- ksdale 7y ago
  I played running back on my high school football team and based on my personal experience, I would say that on really good nights, when I achieved something that I would consider "flow state," it was closer to the information I needed being hyper available. I agree with you completely that my ability to move the right way existed in my subconcious all the time, but when I got into a flow state, it felt like the thing that changed was my interpretation of the world. It would seem like the defense was moving more slowly, and like I was way more easily able to predict how fast they would get to a certain place and whether I could get there first, and when I got touched, I knew how to shift my body to minimize my chance of being tackled. And those nights, I always rushed for a lot more yards than the nights that I didn't feel that way. As I'm describing it, it sounds like it might just be about semantics, haha! Maybe on those nights, I just let myself not think about it, somehow. As a high schooler, I was certainly not intrspective enough about it to turn it on and off, though. But at least from my own subjective experience of those moments, it felt more like my perception of the world actually changed (almost like being on drugs), rather than that I was just calmly doing something I'd practiced a bunch of times, if that makes sense.

rogual 7y ago

Another recommendation: for musicians, Kenny Werner's "Effortless Mastery" talks about this as applied to playing piano.