7 ms·

They break at much much lower rates, because they have many fewer parts. EVs don't have the pistons, valves, belts, fans, compressors, alternators, spark plugs,

They break at much much lower rates, because they have many fewer parts. EVs don't have the pistons, valves, belts, fans, compressors, alternators, spark plugs, etc that gasoline engines have. There's probably order of magnitude fewer parts to break. Having seen the interior of an automatic gearbox, the surprising thing to me is that conventional automobiles are as reliable as they are.

georgerobinson 7y ago
I don't have any data to back this up but I would think that most cars going into the dealership network for maintenance are still under warranty; are less than 5 years old and not going in for expensive or time consuming engine work such as replacing head gaskets, belts, bearings, etc. Instead, I would think most cars going into the dealership network are either: 1. Having a part replaced under warranty because it is faulty or there is a recall 2. Having a service under a service pack or because the car is still in warranty 3. Having some kind of interior defect fixed (rattling in the cabin, infotainment issue, etc) and that these issues are still common enough in EVs that I don't expect the dealership network to change much.
- brownbat 7y ago
  Oil changes belong in here somewhere too. I'm not sure if oil changes are the biggest source of profit, but they probably are the highest volume service. And those get customers in the shop for generally unnecessary upsells (like pumping cleaner into the climate control system to "flush" it? that is a scam, right?). Marketplace's analysis: https://www.marketplace.org/2017/08/24/sustainability/whats-mechanic-do-when-electric-cars-bring-less-work https://www.marketplace.org/2017/08/24/sustainability/whats-... If anything, proprietary software will keep standard updates at the dealer. (Though I expect the schedule will drop way down.)
  - georgerobinson 7y ago
    It's interesting that a lot of readers here and websites in the U.S are saying oil changes every 3,000 or 5,000 miles. This is absolutely not the case in Europe where most cars are on 10,000 or 20,000 mile intervals. I wonder if this is due to much more diverse weather and temperatures you see in the U.S throughout the year and so different grades of oil are required that degrade much faster.
    - free652 7y ago
      I am using my Honda's computer and it asks to change oil around 4500 miles mark. I am mostly drive in a city, so that's would be a cause. I know for others the computer uses more than 10k intervals. Full synthetic oil/filter is about $60 to change here.
    - imglorp 7y ago
      I don't know the cause either but if you look at your oil, you can see it gradually turning colors, from pale ale to stout. At 5k in the US you're about at the latter, so I'm inclined to believe they're telling the truth.
      - georgerobinson 7y ago
        As I replied in another comment: > Oil changes color as it captures contaminates such as soot, carbon deposits, etc. It can operate effectively while brown-ish, but if the oil is carrying too much it will blacken and start to thicken at which point it will be much less effective at lubricating your engine.
        xfitm3 7y ago
        Odor is a better wear indicator. It'll smell burnt when it's ready to be changed.
    - dboreham 7y ago
      It's due to people wanting to make more money, and succeeding.
    - incog-neato 7y ago
      Some oil places just straight up tell you a lower number even when the owner's manual of the car says a higher one. I just go with what the manual says, rather than some random Jiffy Lube employee.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      I tell people to just change it on the 5s because that's an easy round number and an engine that burns/leaks a little probably won't run out in that time. For synthetic I'd say 10k.
laumars 7y ago
I have had just as many issues with things braking unrelated to the engine. Eg washer fluid bottle leaking, air conditioning, disk breaks needing replacing, tire sensors breaking, tires going bald, etc. Out of the engine related problems, the cam belt and clutch are the things that's caused issues in the last 5 years across my various cars.
- neuronic 7y ago
  Those are far easier to handle than, for example, changing a timing belt on a gasoline engine. Faster too... You need less qualified people, less time, less parts, less often for repairs that a handy person can often do themselves and save on labor and parts. Significant sources of income are therefore shrunk for dealerships.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    Engine and trans stuff isn't a significant source of income for them though. If anything ICE specific parts are a break even waste of a bay because for every person dumb enough to have a dealer do a timing belt out of warranty there's another person getting some leaking gasket replaced under warranty. Dealerships probably stand to make more money on EVs. Independent mechanics will probably lose out some though.
  - laumars 7y ago
    Sure, you can replace brake pads yourself. But few people want to do it; let alone are capable. Saying "significant sources of income are therefore shrunk" significantly overstates just how many people would do their maintenance work on that level. I know people who have paid people to replace the bulbs on a car. My wife rarely even bothers to refill the washer and I can count on 1 hand the number of times she's checker her oil in the nearly 20 years of owning a car. Most people either don't care how cars work, don't have the technical capabilities to fix their own car or simply don't want to.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      >I know people who have paid people to replace the bulbs on a car. To be fair most newer cars need a fair amount of front bodywork pulled to change a bulb and most crossovers require pulling tail light housings which can be kind of intimidating for someone who's never done anything more than changed windshield wipers.
windexh8er 7y ago
> There's probably order of magnitude fewer parts to break. According to Tesla a comparative ICE drivetrain will have around 200 moving parts, while one of their vehicles will have roughly 17. The real upside is longevity. While it is a miraculous feat that machines, such as transmissions, last as long as they do today - they're not needed in electric vehicles. I think it's fair to assume we all expect 100k miles and more out of a car produced in the last decade. The two main components of a traditional ICE vehicle are the main contributors to longevity of a vehicle: engine and drivetrain. Those two items are of such high cost to replace many people will not consider the repair as replacement is more feasible. As electric cars stand today longevity is significantly improved immediately. The major failure components will be batteries and electric motors. However the former can be considered a wear item and is, generally easy, to replace. The latter is also much cheaper and more simple to replace compared to the ICE equivalent. That being said the expectations of a BEV today are 300k+ miles with significantly less wear maintenance. Finally as electric vehicles tend to be more modular it may very well be that we finally start to see platforms instead of model year differentials. If I have 'platform 1' here are motor, battery, electronics, etc upgrade options. We haven't seen this that bluntly yet, but I hope we get there. Cars today are built as non-upgradeable partially due to the built in life cycling / planned obsolescence the manufacturers have created for improved sales. It would be great if we could truly move cars to a more repair / upgrade centric platform. Not only could this spur new forms of labor and business but help waste reduction and overall manufacturing waste and pollution.
- logifail 7y ago
  > The major failure components will be batteries and electric motors. However the former can be considered a wear item and is, generally easy, to replace Are there "wear items" in ICE vehicles that cost anything like as much as replacing the batteries in an EV?
  - windexh8er 7y ago
    A battery in an BEV has no direct counterpart in an ICE vehicle. However it most closes aligns as critical to the power train. Any major repairs or replacement of power train components can be comparable depending on the component and labor. Batteries can, like engines and transmissions, be recycled and so costs of replacement today are likely closer to peak than 5-10 years out. Batteries have also proven they last well over 200k miles with less degradation than originally thought [0]. The standard length of operation of a gas ICE doesn't compete with electric, even early in the stage of BEV. [0] https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/ https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/
ajuc 7y ago
But the number of required service stations is also a function of how many customers you have and how they are distributed gographically, not only of how often they visit a station? Surely you don't want people to drive 200km to the nearest service station, no matter if that's once a year or once every 3 years? Maybe that's the difference - customers expect EVs to be bleeding edge, so the service can be a hassle, and you can still get away with it?
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
I hate to break it to you but very few vehicles are going to the dealer for engine/trans related work. Dealerships mostly only see vehicles that are new enough to be under warranty or recently out of it and major power-train stuff doesn't often break in that time period. It's stuff like steering and suspension wear items, the occasional window motor, trunk latches that won't pop, HVAC and stuff like that they make most of their money doing. EVs would probably actually net more money for dealers more money because they wouldn't take a loss on fixing random leaks under warranty (they get paid but book times are often unrealistic).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  My parents both decided they trust the dealership's mechanics more than anyone else's, and have their vehicles serviced there. The family pickup, a Ford F-150, is expected to last ~18 years (makes me sad, because that's a long time to go without Bluetooth) and went out of "warranty" a few years back. The truck has yet to need major work on it, but my dad intends to get it worked on at the dealership. Mind you, we also live within walking distance of both dealerships, and personally know my mom's mechanic. As is always the case, your mileage may vary.
  - Ajedi32 7y ago
    > makes me sad, because that's a long time to go without Bluetooth Kinda off topic, but you could always just get one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Upgraded-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Sumind-Hands-Free/dp/B0756WZ2V3/ https://www.amazon.com/Upgraded-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Sumind...
  - technofiend 7y ago
    Howdy. As a fellow F-150 owner let me just point out that two DIN replacements are available for the stock radio with everything from just bluetooth to full blown android or proprietary entertainment centers with digital radio and sirius xm inputs. I realize your dad may just not bother since the dealer (most likely) won't do the work but it is possible to replace the stock radio.
base698 7y ago
> They break at much much lower rates, because they have many fewer parts. I don't really believe this is true. This is Tesla marketing spin. At one point every vehicle produced was having the drive unit replaced. There have been issues with water ingress and seat problems. Scour the Tesla motors forums. Also, since it's the car is an iPhone model there aren't any aftermarket repairs. Seems to me to worse in every way despite the original spin on maintenance.
- cowmix 7y ago
  My 2013vVolt has 105K miles (85K EV / 20K ICE) on it and besides tires and one oil change, I've done NOTHING to it. zippo. It drives like the day I bought it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - javagram 7y ago
    The volt is an ICE though? As a hybrid one might expect the problems of both ICE and electric in a Volt.
logifail 7y ago
> EVs don't have the pistons, valves, belts, fans, compressors, alternators, spark plugs, etc that gasoline engines have. There's probably order of magnitude fewer parts to break. If you buy a new ICE powered vehicle, how many of any of the parts you mention would one expect to replace in - for instance - the first three years of the vehicles' life? Our experience is that the first few years of a ICE vehicle's life involves changing oil and oil filters and most likely not a whole lot else: https://owners.vwmodels.ca/maintenance/timeline/ https://owners.vwmodels.ca/maintenance/timeline/
- woodpanel 7y ago
  Same. Never had to repair anything in the first three years of a new ICE. If it weren't for mandatory visitations (in order to keep the guarantee) I'd have never see the dealership from within again.
- skykooler 7y ago
  Point of data here - having owned an ICE vehicle for two years, the first components I had to replace were windshield wipers, a taillight, and a tire (which ran over a bolt) - all of which would be at the same risk of failure in an EV.
- prolepunk 7y ago
  The average age of the vehicle on the road in the US is about 10 years. Not everyone buys brand new cars, and after a few years things start to break. Although from my experience things not related to drivetrain break: * Suspension * Brakes * Steering rack. As these components handle the most peak force.
  - mjamesaustin 7y ago
    Brakes in an EV pretty much never need to be replaced, because most of the braking is regenerative and doesn't wear the pads at all.
    - logifail 7y ago
rythie 7y ago
I've mostly had older cars 5-10 years old and I rarely had issues with anything in the engine. It was typically suspension, brakes, lights, the starter battery etc. Tesla make it's difficult to fix their cars by restricting parts or bricking their cars that have been in a crash. Whilst you can get your traditional car fixed pretty much anywhere, likely to get your Tesla fixed you need the dealership more than ever. Information based on the Rich Rebuilds YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA

georgerobinson 7y ago

I don't have any data to back this up but I would think that most cars going into the dealership network for maintenance are still under warranty; are less than 5 years old and not going in for expensive or time consuming engine work such as replacing head gaskets, belts, bearings, etc. Instead, I would think most cars going into the dealership network are either: 1. Having a part replaced under warranty because it is faulty or there is a recall 2. Having a service under a service pack or because the car is still in warranty 3. Having some kind of interior defect fixed (rattling in the cabin, infotainment issue, etc) and that these issues are still common enough in EVs that I don't expect the dealership network to change much.

brownbat 7y ago
Oil changes belong in here somewhere too. I'm not sure if oil changes are the biggest source of profit, but they probably are the highest volume service. And those get customers in the shop for generally unnecessary upsells (like pumping cleaner into the climate control system to "flush" it? that is a scam, right?). Marketplace's analysis: https://www.marketplace.org/2017/08/24/sustainability/whats-mechanic-do-when-electric-cars-bring-less-work https://www.marketplace.org/2017/08/24/sustainability/whats-... If anything, proprietary software will keep standard updates at the dealer. (Though I expect the schedule will drop way down.)
- georgerobinson 7y ago
  It's interesting that a lot of readers here and websites in the U.S are saying oil changes every 3,000 or 5,000 miles. This is absolutely not the case in Europe where most cars are on 10,000 or 20,000 mile intervals. I wonder if this is due to much more diverse weather and temperatures you see in the U.S throughout the year and so different grades of oil are required that degrade much faster.
  - free652 7y ago
    I am using my Honda's computer and it asks to change oil around 4500 miles mark. I am mostly drive in a city, so that's would be a cause. I know for others the computer uses more than 10k intervals. Full synthetic oil/filter is about $60 to change here.
  - imglorp 7y ago
    I don't know the cause either but if you look at your oil, you can see it gradually turning colors, from pale ale to stout. At 5k in the US you're about at the latter, so I'm inclined to believe they're telling the truth.
    - georgerobinson 7y ago
      As I replied in another comment: > Oil changes color as it captures contaminates such as soot, carbon deposits, etc. It can operate effectively while brown-ish, but if the oil is carrying too much it will blacken and start to thicken at which point it will be much less effective at lubricating your engine.
      - xfitm3 7y ago
        Odor is a better wear indicator. It'll smell burnt when it's ready to be changed.
  - dboreham 7y ago
    It's due to people wanting to make more money, and succeeding.
  - incog-neato 7y ago
    Some oil places just straight up tell you a lower number even when the owner's manual of the car says a higher one. I just go with what the manual says, rather than some random Jiffy Lube employee.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    I tell people to just change it on the 5s because that's an easy round number and an engine that burns/leaks a little probably won't run out in that time. For synthetic I'd say 10k.

laumars 7y ago

I have had just as many issues with things braking unrelated to the engine. Eg washer fluid bottle leaking, air conditioning, disk breaks needing replacing, tire sensors breaking, tires going bald, etc. Out of the engine related problems, the cam belt and clutch are the things that's caused issues in the last 5 years across my various cars.

neuronic 7y ago
Those are far easier to handle than, for example, changing a timing belt on a gasoline engine. Faster too... You need less qualified people, less time, less parts, less often for repairs that a handy person can often do themselves and save on labor and parts. Significant sources of income are therefore shrunk for dealerships.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Engine and trans stuff isn't a significant source of income for them though. If anything ICE specific parts are a break even waste of a bay because for every person dumb enough to have a dealer do a timing belt out of warranty there's another person getting some leaking gasket replaced under warranty. Dealerships probably stand to make more money on EVs. Independent mechanics will probably lose out some though.
- laumars 7y ago
  Sure, you can replace brake pads yourself. But few people want to do it; let alone are capable. Saying "significant sources of income are therefore shrunk" significantly overstates just how many people would do their maintenance work on that level. I know people who have paid people to replace the bulbs on a car. My wife rarely even bothers to refill the washer and I can count on 1 hand the number of times she's checker her oil in the nearly 20 years of owning a car. Most people either don't care how cars work, don't have the technical capabilities to fix their own car or simply don't want to.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >I know people who have paid people to replace the bulbs on a car. To be fair most newer cars need a fair amount of front bodywork pulled to change a bulb and most crossovers require pulling tail light housings which can be kind of intimidating for someone who's never done anything more than changed windshield wipers.

windexh8er 7y ago

> There's probably order of magnitude fewer parts to break. According to Tesla a comparative ICE drivetrain will have around 200 moving parts, while one of their vehicles will have roughly 17. The real upside is longevity. While it is a miraculous feat that machines, such as transmissions, last as long as they do today - they're not needed in electric vehicles. I think it's fair to assume we all expect 100k miles and more out of a car produced in the last decade. The two main components of a traditional ICE vehicle are the main contributors to longevity of a vehicle: engine and drivetrain. Those two items are of such high cost to replace many people will not consider the repair as replacement is more feasible. As electric cars stand today longevity is significantly improved immediately. The major failure components will be batteries and electric motors. However the former can be considered a wear item and is, generally easy, to replace. The latter is also much cheaper and more simple to replace compared to the ICE equivalent. That being said the expectations of a BEV today are 300k+ miles with significantly less wear maintenance. Finally as electric vehicles tend to be more modular it may very well be that we finally start to see platforms instead of model year differentials. If I have 'platform 1' here are motor, battery, electronics, etc upgrade options. We haven't seen this that bluntly yet, but I hope we get there. Cars today are built as non-upgradeable partially due to the built in life cycling / planned obsolescence the manufacturers have created for improved sales. It would be great if we could truly move cars to a more repair / upgrade centric platform. Not only could this spur new forms of labor and business but help waste reduction and overall manufacturing waste and pollution.

logifail 7y ago
> The major failure components will be batteries and electric motors. However the former can be considered a wear item and is, generally easy, to replace Are there "wear items" in ICE vehicles that cost anything like as much as replacing the batteries in an EV?
- windexh8er 7y ago
  A battery in an BEV has no direct counterpart in an ICE vehicle. However it most closes aligns as critical to the power train. Any major repairs or replacement of power train components can be comparable depending on the component and labor. Batteries can, like engines and transmissions, be recycled and so costs of replacement today are likely closer to peak than 5-10 years out. Batteries have also proven they last well over 200k miles with less degradation than originally thought [0]. The standard length of operation of a gas ICE doesn't compete with electric, even early in the stage of BEV. [0] https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/ https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/

ajuc 7y ago

But the number of required service stations is also a function of how many customers you have and how they are distributed gographically, not only of how often they visit a station? Surely you don't want people to drive 200km to the nearest service station, no matter if that's once a year or once every 3 years? Maybe that's the difference - customers expect EVs to be bleeding edge, so the service can be a hassle, and you can still get away with it?

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

I hate to break it to you but very few vehicles are going to the dealer for engine/trans related work. Dealerships mostly only see vehicles that are new enough to be under warranty or recently out of it and major power-train stuff doesn't often break in that time period. It's stuff like steering and suspension wear items, the occasional window motor, trunk latches that won't pop, HVAC and stuff like that they make most of their money doing. EVs would probably actually net more money for dealers more money because they wouldn't take a loss on fixing random leaks under warranty (they get paid but book times are often unrealistic).

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
My parents both decided they trust the dealership's mechanics more than anyone else's, and have their vehicles serviced there. The family pickup, a Ford F-150, is expected to last ~18 years (makes me sad, because that's a long time to go without Bluetooth) and went out of "warranty" a few years back. The truck has yet to need major work on it, but my dad intends to get it worked on at the dealership. Mind you, we also live within walking distance of both dealerships, and personally know my mom's mechanic. As is always the case, your mileage may vary.
- Ajedi32 7y ago
  > makes me sad, because that's a long time to go without Bluetooth Kinda off topic, but you could always just get one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Upgraded-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Sumind-Hands-Free/dp/B0756WZ2V3/ https://www.amazon.com/Upgraded-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Sumind...
- technofiend 7y ago
  Howdy. As a fellow F-150 owner let me just point out that two DIN replacements are available for the stock radio with everything from just bluetooth to full blown android or proprietary entertainment centers with digital radio and sirius xm inputs. I realize your dad may just not bother since the dealer (most likely) won't do the work but it is possible to replace the stock radio.

base698 7y ago

> They break at much much lower rates, because they have many fewer parts. I don't really believe this is true. This is Tesla marketing spin. At one point every vehicle produced was having the drive unit replaced. There have been issues with water ingress and seat problems. Scour the Tesla motors forums. Also, since it's the car is an iPhone model there aren't any aftermarket repairs. Seems to me to worse in every way despite the original spin on maintenance.

cowmix 7y ago
My 2013vVolt has 105K miles (85K EV / 20K ICE) on it and besides tires and one oil change, I've done NOTHING to it. zippo. It drives like the day I bought it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- javagram 7y ago
  The volt is an ICE though? As a hybrid one might expect the problems of both ICE and electric in a Volt.

logifail 7y ago

> EVs don't have the pistons, valves, belts, fans, compressors, alternators, spark plugs, etc that gasoline engines have. There's probably order of magnitude fewer parts to break. If you buy a new ICE powered vehicle, how many of any of the parts you mention would one expect to replace in - for instance - the first three years of the vehicles' life? Our experience is that the first few years of a ICE vehicle's life involves changing oil and oil filters and most likely not a whole lot else: https://owners.vwmodels.ca/maintenance/timeline/ https://owners.vwmodels.ca/maintenance/timeline/

woodpanel 7y ago
Same. Never had to repair anything in the first three years of a new ICE. If it weren't for mandatory visitations (in order to keep the guarantee) I'd have never see the dealership from within again.
skykooler 7y ago
Point of data here - having owned an ICE vehicle for two years, the first components I had to replace were windshield wipers, a taillight, and a tire (which ran over a bolt) - all of which would be at the same risk of failure in an EV.
prolepunk 7y ago
The average age of the vehicle on the road in the US is about 10 years. Not everyone buys brand new cars, and after a few years things start to break. Although from my experience things not related to drivetrain break: * Suspension * Brakes * Steering rack. As these components handle the most peak force.
- mjamesaustin 7y ago
  Brakes in an EV pretty much never need to be replaced, because most of the braking is regenerative and doesn't wear the pads at all.
  - logifail 7y ago

rythie 7y ago

I've mostly had older cars 5-10 years old and I rarely had issues with anything in the engine. It was typically suspension, brakes, lights, the starter battery etc. Tesla make it's difficult to fix their cars by restricting parts or bricking their cars that have been in a crash. Whilst you can get your traditional car fixed pretty much anywhere, likely to get your Tesla fixed you need the dealership more than ever. Information based on the Rich Rebuilds YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA