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Compare to the Audi e-Tron, which has a fairly massive 95kWH battery but only scores 204 miles of EPA range. They claim they're only using 88% of the battery ca

Compare to the Audi e-Tron, which has a fairly massive 95kWH battery but only scores 204 miles of EPA range. They claim they're only using 88% of the battery capacity so that charging is faster and battery longevity is preserved, but thats a really weird engineering decision that belies the fact they have made a terribly inefficient (and perhaps rapidly degrading?) battery pack/drivetrain. Meanwhile the base Model S, for $4k more, has 285 miles of EPA range, and charges faster when below 50%, although not as fast as the e-Tron when above 50%. The smaller Kia Niro EV (if you can get one, they aren't making many because they can't source the batteries) squeezes 258 miles of range from a 65 kWH battery. Much better, but terribly production constrained. It won What Car of the Year in the UK but they can only deliver 900 to the UK for the whole of 2019. Not sure what the global Kia production rate is, but presumably far far less than Tesla which has sustained 4000+ Model 3's per week since last October (although not yet delivering to the RHD countries like the UK, alas) Turns out making EVs is harder than everyone thought. We were told the traditional automakers would just wade in and obliterate Tesla, who were just putting 'wheels on batteries'. That hasn't happened.

tim333 7y ago
>...88% of the battery capacity...weird engineering decision Musk was talking about existing packs lasting 400,000 miles and working on new ones that will do 1 million. You can't get those sort of life spans if you use the full cycle - think how long your phone battery lasts.
- codeulike 7y ago
  Car batteries are not much like phone batteries. A car battery pack is a system in itself, with thousands of small cells supported by cooling, heating, monitoring and balancing systems. edit: there are recommendations for Tesla daily use that say go to 90% most of the time. But still a bit different to putting 12% completely out of reach like Audi have done.
  - martin_bech 7y ago
    Well actually, by default Teslas charge daily to only 90%, to preserve the battery. You can however change it to 100%, if going on a trip, or otherwise needing the full range.
    - rconti 7y ago
      There's no reason to believe 100% is actually 100%.
  - bishopknight 7y ago
    Tesla is also deep in the red so I partially read these PR announcements with a grain of salt as they desperately try to acquire capital
    - navigatesol 7y ago
      Exactly. Financials come out today, and after saying that it's "profits from here on out" ntwo quarters ago, Tesla will probably produce another huge loss. As is par for the course, their PR news will come hot and heavy: Cars go further! Our entire business model is now robot taxis! None of it matters if you can't sell your product at a profit.
      - jsight 7y ago
        To be fair to Tesla, the "profits from here on out" statements came with some caveats around Q1 2019. I get the feeling that they have moved even more one time charges into the one-time-bad-really-bad quarter as a result. To be fair to your point, the "Autonomy Day" presentation implied a willingness to renege on the promises about other quarters as well.
    - bryanlarsen 7y ago
      Toyota's debt to equity ratio is three times that of Tesla's.
      - 7y ago
- bishopknight 7y ago
  So it's optimal to not fully cycle batteries then? It's better to keep them mid charged and top them off?
  - tim333 7y ago
    I believe they last longer if you don't fully charge. My thinkpad used to have a setting where you could stop the charge at 85 or 90%. For storage apparently its best to have them something like half charged and kept somewhere cold.
  - tgb 7y ago
    Yes, the Battery University is my favorite reference for this stuff, see this page for example: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_l...
martin_bech 7y ago
I dont know if you know this, but the default for a Tesla is 90% battery capacity (You can manually override this very easily to 100% if going on a trip, or otherwise needing the full capacity)
- codeulike 7y ago
  Do they still do that? I thought they turned that off a few years ago. Still, completely different to Audi who are completely hiding 12% from the customer.
  - cmsonger 7y ago
    They still do that and it affects the behavior of the car: Regenerative braking is turned off as you approach 100%. As an owner, I use this feature occasionally. Once in a while I'm setting off on a trip where initial charge range really matters for some reason.
Shivetya 7y ago
A few observations, before I derail I do not want to dismiss the efforts of Audi or Jaguar but I think their initial focus was being good examples for their respective brands with regards to their packaging. Their interior quality of a different generation and caliber than Tesla. The EV part was an important concern but secondary. They can still rack up significant ZEV credits in California letting them off the hook of buying them from others. Tesla needs to refresh the S and X to improve interior fit and finish but also concentrate on making them quieter, an issue I have with my 3. without the drone of a motor every sound stands out and EVs tend to ride on stiffer, noisier, tires. As for difficulty, other than i3 and Tesla cars I do not believe any other EV was a clean sheet design. Even the Leaf appears based on traditional cars. the Bolt is simply a spark when a new motor cradle and battery back pushed under it. The Hyundai/Kia models are all adaptions. Not 100% sure about the iPace but Jaguar even contracted out assembly. -- The manufacturing difficulty is probably secondary to the seismic shift crossing the auto industry and associated industries. EVs don't need the large established dealership base and their included maintenance facilities. Secondary market means little use for parts stores and their suppliers. Gas stations will be right out with most charging done at destination points. Manufacturing of the autos themselves will implode the number of employees and that will lead to union difficulty in some countries; where they sit on boards and can stymie the move to EVs and loss of production jobs. The Kia Niro EV numbers you mention are not EPA which was 258. I mention this because your other numbers were EPA.
- codeulike 7y ago
  Thanks, sorry I gave the european rating for the Kia, have edited. I believe the i-Pace was a ground-up design.
- ajuc 7y ago
  > EVs don't need the large established dealership base and their included maintenance facilities I never understood that. Why does power source matter in the context of dealership base and maintenance? EVs still break.
  - quanticle 7y ago
nottorp 7y ago
No idea what is actually going on, but the first thought that comes to my mind is that in the US you're allowed and expected to blatantly lie in marketing while in the EU you may have to keep it somewhat realistic...
- codeulike 7y ago
  No. I'm talking about the EPA (USA) rating of the e-Tron vs other cars. EPA ratings for EVs are generally pretty accurate vs real world range, although in the real world a lot depends on driving style and weather etc.
  - nottorp 7y ago
    As I said, I have no idea what's going on in the US, but I know 2 facts: - service providers are allowed to lie on how much a service contract will actually cost, adding/changing extra fees that were never mentioned - Boeing of the MAX fame was allowed to self certify One could extrapolate from there...
    - codeulike 7y ago
      EV range is very easy for anyone to check
masto 7y ago
A rising tide lifts all boats. I'm just happy there are an increasing number of EVs coming on the market. And people will have their reasons for choosing one or another, so it doesn't have to be that one car is objectively best across the board and therefore gets 100% of the sales. I'm very happy with my Model 3 but what I really want to see is acceptance of electric cars as a viable and sensible option for a lot of drivers, and the infrastructure that comes along with that.
- codeulike 7y ago
  Of course. I'm not trying to play a game of 'my EV is better than that EV' (nb I drive a Leaf). I'm pointing out that many people underestimated the lead Tesla has in EV technology. This year we've seen major, and esteemed, automakers put things into production that are clearly years behind what Tesla can do. I'm glad they are joining in, but I'm just trying to set the record straight. FWIW the Kia Niro EV (and the Hyundai Kona Electric which is based on the same platform) are very serious competitors for the Model 3. Kia and Hyundai seem to have got the EV tech figured out. But alas they can't hardly manufacture any of them. So thats Tesla's other advantage - a whopping huge battery factory.
  - cogman10 7y ago
    At the last investors meeting, battery production is what Elon said is the main bottleneck at this time for model 3s. AFAIK, all the others are going to get their batteries from third party vendors (except maybe Nissan?). That is going to cause a cost for everyone but Tesla.
    - kmlx 7y ago
      isn’t Panasonic the ones that provide all of the batteries that end up in Teslas? my understanding is that Panasonic has been losing money so they’ve started scaling back production. which lead to Musk taking shots at them.
      - codeulike 7y ago
PeterStuer 7y ago
Several of the 'traditional' automakers have EV models just to comply with the EU average emission targets agreements [1]. Fiat Chrysler paid Tesla a handsome sum to have its production 'pooled' [2], and others produce subpar EV and low emission vehicles because of the perversity of 'Super credits' (one produced EV can be counted more than once when the the average is calculated). [1]"Fiat Chrysler taps Tesla to avoid EU emission fine" https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fiat-chrysler-taps-tesla-to-avoid-eu-emission-fine-2019-04-08 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fiat-chrysler-taps-tesla-t... [2] "Reducing CO2 emissions from passenger cars" https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehicles/cars_en https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehicles/cars_...
Brakenshire 7y ago
> Compare to the Audi e-Tron, which has a fairly massive 95kWH battery but only scores 204 miles of EPA range. They claim they're only using 88% of the battery capacity so that charging is faster and battery longevity is preserved, but thats a really weird engineering decision that belies the fact they have made a terribly inefficient (and perhaps rapidly degrading?) battery pack/drivetrain. Audi chooses to limit charging thresholds to preserve battery life and your conclusion is that they must have a rapidly degrading battery pack? More likely is they're being ultra-cautious because they don't have their own data in place for how the batteries will respond. > Turns out making EVs is harder than everyone thought. We were told the traditional automakers would just wade in and obliterate Tesla... This is all based on the new Model S having a range 80 miles higher than the e-Tron and 50 miles higher than the I-Pace. The danger to Tesla's ability to dominate the EV market isn't these two models, the danger is a swamp of competition. Just VW is planning to launch 50 different models by 2025 on its modular electric platform, from multiple brands and in every price point from $30k to $100k. I'd expect Tesla to still be the largest selling model within its particular niches, but its one crossover will be nipped at the heels by 20 different crossovers from competitors, all serving different use cases and price points, and the same for SUVs. It won't even launch a small city hatchback, where VW alone will have 5-10 different models. Although I’m not even sure this should be characterised as a threat, Tesla was never going to maintain a total dominance in electric cars and that’s not required for it to become a significant and profitable manufacturer. The question really is at what level of scale and profitability Tesla is happy to end up. The I-Pace is actually doing well for Jaguar, because Jaguar is a niche producer, it's currently providing 10% of global Jaguar sales. I'd expect Tesla to settle in as something around BMW, luxury price points, decent profit margins, solid but not massive sales numbers. The model 3 has ended up solidly within that price bracket.
- codeulike 7y ago
  > Audi chooses to limit charging thresholds to preserve battery life and your conclusion is that they must have a rapidly degrading battery pack? More likely is they're being ultra-cautious because they don't have their own data in place for how the batteries will respond. Well, its clearly inefficient, whether it degredes rapidly or not was just a guess. My argument is that building EVs is harder than Teslas critics have admitted. If Audi don't know the degreadation state for their own battery then that kindof backs that up. The e-Tron is a nice enough car but it was trailed as being a Tesla killer and its clearly not that. > This is all based on the new Model S having a range 80 miles higher than the e-Tron and 50 miles higher than the I-Pace My argument is not really about range, its about range for a given battery size - i.e. efficiency. Batteries are heavy and expensive - thats why building an affordable long range EV is such a challenge. If your EV is inefficient, it will be heavier and more expensive than it needs to be. Even if the e-Tron used 100% of its battery it would still only get 230 miles of range. Still below the base Model S, which - probably - has something like a 70/80 kWH battery - smaller, lighter and cheaper. I like the look of the i-Pace but it seems to be smaller on the inside than it should be. It supposed to be an SUV and just 500lbs lighter than the enormous Model X but its got just a slightly bigger boot than the Nissan Leaf (17 cubic feet vs 15.3). Presumably, thats because its full of big heavy battery. > I'd expect Tesla to settle in as something around BMW, luxury price points, decent profit margins, solid but not massive sales numbers. The model 3 has ended up solidly within that price bracket. Yeah you might be right, I am disappointed that they abandoned the $35k target for the Model 3.
blendo 7y ago
But the Audi e-Tron is incredibly massive: curb weight of about 5600 lbs/2500 kg. The Model S is closer to 4600-4900 lbs. The Niro EV is about 3800 lbs.
- codeulike 7y ago
  This is true. But if you compare it to the Model X which is about the same weight you'll still end up with the same conclusion - the battery/drive train of the e-Tron is not well engineered. The base Model X probably has a 70/80 kWH battery - smaller, lighter and cheaper then the one in the e-Tron, and its supposed to be getting a 250 mile EPA rating.
jshowa3 7y ago
Funny thing is, I have a fighting chance of getting my car back within less than a week for repair if I take it to any of the 100's of dealerships available for non-Tesla vehicles. Try doing that with a Tesla. Tesla is struggling just as much as the other automotive companies. They just don't show it.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

tim333 7y ago

>...88% of the battery capacity...weird engineering decision Musk was talking about existing packs lasting 400,000 miles and working on new ones that will do 1 million. You can't get those sort of life spans if you use the full cycle - think how long your phone battery lasts.

codeulike 7y ago
Car batteries are not much like phone batteries. A car battery pack is a system in itself, with thousands of small cells supported by cooling, heating, monitoring and balancing systems. edit: there are recommendations for Tesla daily use that say go to 90% most of the time. But still a bit different to putting 12% completely out of reach like Audi have done.
- martin_bech 7y ago
  Well actually, by default Teslas charge daily to only 90%, to preserve the battery. You can however change it to 100%, if going on a trip, or otherwise needing the full range.
  - rconti 7y ago
    There's no reason to believe 100% is actually 100%.
- bishopknight 7y ago
  Tesla is also deep in the red so I partially read these PR announcements with a grain of salt as they desperately try to acquire capital
  - navigatesol 7y ago
    Exactly. Financials come out today, and after saying that it's "profits from here on out" ntwo quarters ago, Tesla will probably produce another huge loss. As is par for the course, their PR news will come hot and heavy: Cars go further! Our entire business model is now robot taxis! None of it matters if you can't sell your product at a profit.
    - jsight 7y ago
      To be fair to Tesla, the "profits from here on out" statements came with some caveats around Q1 2019. I get the feeling that they have moved even more one time charges into the one-time-bad-really-bad quarter as a result. To be fair to your point, the "Autonomy Day" presentation implied a willingness to renege on the promises about other quarters as well.
  - bryanlarsen 7y ago
    Toyota's debt to equity ratio is three times that of Tesla's.
    - 7y ago
bishopknight 7y ago
So it's optimal to not fully cycle batteries then? It's better to keep them mid charged and top them off?
- tim333 7y ago
  I believe they last longer if you don't fully charge. My thinkpad used to have a setting where you could stop the charge at 85 or 90%. For storage apparently its best to have them something like half charged and kept somewhere cold.
- tgb 7y ago
  Yes, the Battery University is my favorite reference for this stuff, see this page for example: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_l...

martin_bech 7y ago

I dont know if you know this, but the default for a Tesla is 90% battery capacity (You can manually override this very easily to 100% if going on a trip, or otherwise needing the full capacity)

codeulike 7y ago
Do they still do that? I thought they turned that off a few years ago. Still, completely different to Audi who are completely hiding 12% from the customer.
- cmsonger 7y ago
  They still do that and it affects the behavior of the car: Regenerative braking is turned off as you approach 100%. As an owner, I use this feature occasionally. Once in a while I'm setting off on a trip where initial charge range really matters for some reason.

Shivetya 7y ago

A few observations, before I derail I do not want to dismiss the efforts of Audi or Jaguar but I think their initial focus was being good examples for their respective brands with regards to their packaging. Their interior quality of a different generation and caliber than Tesla. The EV part was an important concern but secondary. They can still rack up significant ZEV credits in California letting them off the hook of buying them from others. Tesla needs to refresh the S and X to improve interior fit and finish but also concentrate on making them quieter, an issue I have with my 3. without the drone of a motor every sound stands out and EVs tend to ride on stiffer, noisier, tires. As for difficulty, other than i3 and Tesla cars I do not believe any other EV was a clean sheet design. Even the Leaf appears based on traditional cars. the Bolt is simply a spark when a new motor cradle and battery back pushed under it. The Hyundai/Kia models are all adaptions. Not 100% sure about the iPace but Jaguar even contracted out assembly. -- The manufacturing difficulty is probably secondary to the seismic shift crossing the auto industry and associated industries. EVs don't need the large established dealership base and their included maintenance facilities. Secondary market means little use for parts stores and their suppliers. Gas stations will be right out with most charging done at destination points. Manufacturing of the autos themselves will implode the number of employees and that will lead to union difficulty in some countries; where they sit on boards and can stymie the move to EVs and loss of production jobs. The Kia Niro EV numbers you mention are not EPA which was 258. I mention this because your other numbers were EPA.

codeulike 7y ago
Thanks, sorry I gave the european rating for the Kia, have edited. I believe the i-Pace was a ground-up design.
ajuc 7y ago
> EVs don't need the large established dealership base and their included maintenance facilities I never understood that. Why does power source matter in the context of dealership base and maintenance? EVs still break.
- quanticle 7y ago

nottorp 7y ago

No idea what is actually going on, but the first thought that comes to my mind is that in the US you're allowed and expected to blatantly lie in marketing while in the EU you may have to keep it somewhat realistic...

codeulike 7y ago
No. I'm talking about the EPA (USA) rating of the e-Tron vs other cars. EPA ratings for EVs are generally pretty accurate vs real world range, although in the real world a lot depends on driving style and weather etc.
- nottorp 7y ago
  As I said, I have no idea what's going on in the US, but I know 2 facts: - service providers are allowed to lie on how much a service contract will actually cost, adding/changing extra fees that were never mentioned - Boeing of the MAX fame was allowed to self certify One could extrapolate from there...
  - codeulike 7y ago
    EV range is very easy for anyone to check

masto 7y ago

A rising tide lifts all boats. I'm just happy there are an increasing number of EVs coming on the market. And people will have their reasons for choosing one or another, so it doesn't have to be that one car is objectively best across the board and therefore gets 100% of the sales. I'm very happy with my Model 3 but what I really want to see is acceptance of electric cars as a viable and sensible option for a lot of drivers, and the infrastructure that comes along with that.

codeulike 7y ago
Of course. I'm not trying to play a game of 'my EV is better than that EV' (nb I drive a Leaf). I'm pointing out that many people underestimated the lead Tesla has in EV technology. This year we've seen major, and esteemed, automakers put things into production that are clearly years behind what Tesla can do. I'm glad they are joining in, but I'm just trying to set the record straight. FWIW the Kia Niro EV (and the Hyundai Kona Electric which is based on the same platform) are very serious competitors for the Model 3. Kia and Hyundai seem to have got the EV tech figured out. But alas they can't hardly manufacture any of them. So thats Tesla's other advantage - a whopping huge battery factory.
- cogman10 7y ago
  At the last investors meeting, battery production is what Elon said is the main bottleneck at this time for model 3s. AFAIK, all the others are going to get their batteries from third party vendors (except maybe Nissan?). That is going to cause a cost for everyone but Tesla.
  - kmlx 7y ago
    isn’t Panasonic the ones that provide all of the batteries that end up in Teslas? my understanding is that Panasonic has been losing money so they’ve started scaling back production. which lead to Musk taking shots at them.
    - codeulike 7y ago

PeterStuer 7y ago

Several of the 'traditional' automakers have EV models just to comply with the EU average emission targets agreements [1]. Fiat Chrysler paid Tesla a handsome sum to have its production 'pooled' [2], and others produce subpar EV and low emission vehicles because of the perversity of 'Super credits' (one produced EV can be counted more than once when the the average is calculated). [1]"Fiat Chrysler taps Tesla to avoid EU emission fine" https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fiat-chrysler-taps-tesla-to-avoid-eu-emission-fine-2019-04-08 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fiat-chrysler-taps-tesla-t... [2] "Reducing CO2 emissions from passenger cars" https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehicles/cars_en https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehicles/cars_...

Brakenshire 7y ago

> Compare to the Audi e-Tron, which has a fairly massive 95kWH battery but only scores 204 miles of EPA range. They claim they're only using 88% of the battery capacity so that charging is faster and battery longevity is preserved, but thats a really weird engineering decision that belies the fact they have made a terribly inefficient (and perhaps rapidly degrading?) battery pack/drivetrain. Audi chooses to limit charging thresholds to preserve battery life and your conclusion is that they must have a rapidly degrading battery pack? More likely is they're being ultra-cautious because they don't have their own data in place for how the batteries will respond. > Turns out making EVs is harder than everyone thought. We were told the traditional automakers would just wade in and obliterate Tesla... This is all based on the new Model S having a range 80 miles higher than the e-Tron and 50 miles higher than the I-Pace. The danger to Tesla's ability to dominate the EV market isn't these two models, the danger is a swamp of competition. Just VW is planning to launch 50 different models by 2025 on its modular electric platform, from multiple brands and in every price point from $30k to $100k. I'd expect Tesla to still be the largest selling model within its particular niches, but its one crossover will be nipped at the heels by 20 different crossovers from competitors, all serving different use cases and price points, and the same for SUVs. It won't even launch a small city hatchback, where VW alone will have 5-10 different models. Although I’m not even sure this should be characterised as a threat, Tesla was never going to maintain a total dominance in electric cars and that’s not required for it to become a significant and profitable manufacturer. The question really is at what level of scale and profitability Tesla is happy to end up. The I-Pace is actually doing well for Jaguar, because Jaguar is a niche producer, it's currently providing 10% of global Jaguar sales. I'd expect Tesla to settle in as something around BMW, luxury price points, decent profit margins, solid but not massive sales numbers. The model 3 has ended up solidly within that price bracket.

codeulike 7y ago
> Audi chooses to limit charging thresholds to preserve battery life and your conclusion is that they must have a rapidly degrading battery pack? More likely is they're being ultra-cautious because they don't have their own data in place for how the batteries will respond. Well, its clearly inefficient, whether it degredes rapidly or not was just a guess. My argument is that building EVs is harder than Teslas critics have admitted. If Audi don't know the degreadation state for their own battery then that kindof backs that up. The e-Tron is a nice enough car but it was trailed as being a Tesla killer and its clearly not that. > This is all based on the new Model S having a range 80 miles higher than the e-Tron and 50 miles higher than the I-Pace My argument is not really about range, its about range for a given battery size - i.e. efficiency. Batteries are heavy and expensive - thats why building an affordable long range EV is such a challenge. If your EV is inefficient, it will be heavier and more expensive than it needs to be. Even if the e-Tron used 100% of its battery it would still only get 230 miles of range. Still below the base Model S, which - probably - has something like a 70/80 kWH battery - smaller, lighter and cheaper. I like the look of the i-Pace but it seems to be smaller on the inside than it should be. It supposed to be an SUV and just 500lbs lighter than the enormous Model X but its got just a slightly bigger boot than the Nissan Leaf (17 cubic feet vs 15.3). Presumably, thats because its full of big heavy battery. > I'd expect Tesla to settle in as something around BMW, luxury price points, decent profit margins, solid but not massive sales numbers. The model 3 has ended up solidly within that price bracket. Yeah you might be right, I am disappointed that they abandoned the $35k target for the Model 3.

blendo 7y ago

But the Audi e-Tron is incredibly massive: curb weight of about 5600 lbs/2500 kg. The Model S is closer to 4600-4900 lbs. The Niro EV is about 3800 lbs.

codeulike 7y ago
This is true. But if you compare it to the Model X which is about the same weight you'll still end up with the same conclusion - the battery/drive train of the e-Tron is not well engineered. The base Model X probably has a 70/80 kWH battery - smaller, lighter and cheaper then the one in the e-Tron, and its supposed to be getting a 250 mile EPA rating.

jshowa3 7y ago

Funny thing is, I have a fighting chance of getting my car back within less than a week for repair if I take it to any of the 100's of dealerships available for non-Tesla vehicles. Try doing that with a Tesla. Tesla is struggling just as much as the other automotive companies. They just don't show it.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]