16 ms·

The FreedomBox enables you to control your view of the internet

142 points by holri 7y ago

azinman2 7y ago
Wonder who their target demographic is. People balk at paying for email from a known provider, let alone buy a box to run it out of their own home for $100. You’d have to have a lot of motivation to do so, and it feels like the Venn diagram of people who are savvy and motivated enough to care about digital privacy, intersected with those with technical skills feels like nearly 90% overlap. And I’m not so sure the privacy group is so sizable. I’d probably be in this camp but I really don’t want to have to worry about spam filters, triggering them in others by sending from my home ISP, nor dealing with backup or corrupted databases. Wonder what their plan is there... The average person who wants this without being their own sysadmin should probably just use Apple products. I work for Apple and can attest that privacy isn’t just marketing — it permeates all decision making in every discussion I’ve been a part of... sometimes making it harder or impossible to create the things we’d like to have (privacy wins). I know many on HN will want their “freedom” as in “freedom box,” but the average user massively benefits from an ecosystem designed to make things as easy, desirable, and supported as possible.
- galonk 7y ago
  It doesn't even do email, so you'd still be paying a known provider :)
- kelnos 7y ago
  I assume you're getting downvoted due to the Apple advocacy in your second paragraph, and hopefully not for your first paragraph. I entirely agree with that. I wish I didn't have to be cynical about things like this, but I just don't see the market for this device, and when it comes to social-network-like things, you need a large market for network effects to kick in.
  - belorn 7y ago
    The initial idea was a device similar to a answering machine in size, price and interface. That is, a $10-$20 price range and a simple configure-once-and-forget interface. Pioneer Edition FreedomBox Home Server Kit is clearly not there yet, but I would hazard a guess that their target demographic is currently on developers and tech savvy privacy advocates who can afford a bit steeper price for a "server kit".
    - kelnos 7y ago
      But still, who would buy that $10-$20 device? If it doesn't replicate their Facebook/Instagram/whatever experience, and they don't know how to get their friends on it (the majority of whom probably aren't too privacy-conscious), it's just a paperweight
  - ibeckermayer 7y ago
    You can get the same network effects of these cloud services through federated networks. Imagine "Federate-book" I run and host my own "Facebook wall" on my local box (or wherever I choose to host), friends can request access to view my content ("friend requests") which I can then control and manage myself, "Facebook groups" are hosted by wherever their creator decides, and moderation is the right/responsibility of the creator of the group. If some host-er of the federate-book wants to aggregate my data and sell it to third parties, they can make that clear in their terms and I can opt-in/out of that arrangement. If my host-er wants to use machine learning and other methods to wipe my feed of their definition of "abuse" or "fake news", they can try that and I can determine if I trust their judgement. I'll choose whether I want to hear what Alex Jones has to say for myself, thank you very much. If somebody is illicitly calling for violence and should be forcefully banned and punished, then this can be dealt with by the (admittedly imperfect,) relatively transparent and principled system of laws that include foundational principles of justice like innocence until proven guilty, and the rights of the accused to defend themselves. The status quo cloud-silos governed by a small group of executives opining about what censorship-policies will garner them the greatest profits next quarter are dangerous single points of failure for user privacy, and inherently at risk for becoming tools of tyrannical control and manipulation. Yes there is much work to be done in building good protocols for federated social networks that even grandma can make use of, but guess whose fault that is? "The cloud" didn't exist 20 years ago either, and its ubiquity and ease of use should be attributed to the literal billions (if not trillions) of dollars of R&D that has been thrown at it. We really can "have our cake and eat it too" in this domain, if the engineers and venture capitalists that build/fund these tools directed R&D appropriately. As the (predictable but unfortunately unmitigated) true cost of a generation of "cloud" mania slowly becomes apparent to the general public, we will likely see a greater groundswell of market demand "fediverse" products and services. Undoubtedly the rent-seeking cloud providers will try and prevent this through propaganda and by force -- we're already seeing this in the "fake news" hysteria and Zuckerberg's call for regulation of social media. But if America's legal institutions and popular support can hold the barbarians at bay, we will hopefully be living with a very different internet 20 years from now. (Didn't really know where I would end up with this comment and it sort of turned into a rallying cry so I'll go with it. Yeah HN, let's do it!)
- frenchy 7y ago
  I think the target market is a little larger than you think. The problem with Apple products is that they're a walled garden, and an expensive one to boot. My privacy isn't worth $4000 for a set of new computers, but it might be worth $100. I'd still probably end up using Linux for my day-to-day programming needs, because I find it easier to use. While I suspect most of the target market could set up their own server (it's not rocket science-a smart 12 year-old could), a lot of us couldn't be bothered. A lot of people who buy hammers at the store probably could make their own hammer in their shop, but why would they? Also, speaking of 12-year olds, I think this would be a great thing for kids to tinker with .. set up their own website and whatnot.
galonk 7y ago
These home server boxes never include self-hosting email. Is it because anyone running their own SMTP is assumed to be a spammer? It's annoying because hosted email services are strangely expensive. Oh, they'll let you have multiple email addresses for a low rate, but as soon as you want multiple mailboxes (which is just a separate directory as far as the server is concerned), suddenly I'm paying way way more.
- DenseComet 7y ago
  Its usually because residential IPs block port 25 so a mail server would not even be able to receive mail
  - scarhill 7y ago
    I know that residential ISPs block outgoing port 25 because of the spam issue. Is it common for them to block it incoming as well? You don't really need outgoing port 25 to run your own mail server.
    - progval 7y ago
      > You don't really need outgoing port 25 to run your own mail server. You do need it to send mail
      - dredmorbius 7y ago
        Directly, yes, but not via a smart host, which is how most SOHO mailservers (where used) are configured. It's not quite a full-fledged, full-privilege system, but it continues to provide major benefits over Webmail or client-based (POPS, IMAPS) configurations.
    - allset_ 7y ago
      You definitely need outbound port 25/587 if you want to send email to others.
      - 7y ago
bloopernova 7y ago
Interesting concept. A user friendly Pi-alike that runs services locally so you don't have to trust the big corporations. (said corporations may have very different goals than you do for your data, he says as neutrally as possible...) I'm very happy that such things are possible nowadays: small inexpensive hardware running Linux, with some well constructed software UI on top. Similar to what Mozilla is doing with their IoT webthings gateway (which I have running on my Retropie since most of the time it sits idle and sips tiny amounts of power). I know it's "on the shoulders of giants" but I think we shouldn't underestimate the power that an open, hackable platform like the Pi gives back to people.
duskwuff 7y ago
As I've mentioned on other stories about this device (like [1]), a part of the user story that's still missing is how these devices are supposed to interact with each other. Running a few web services inside your home network is neat, I guess, but not very useful if they're only accessible within that network. There's also a lot of weird overlap between the services provided by the various apps installed by FreedomBox. It's unclear how much, if any, integration work FreedomBox is doing, or if the user is expected to do that on their own. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19722179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19722179
- wmf 7y ago
  I assume you give the box a public IP and use protocols like ActivityPub to federate.
- rchaud 7y ago
  If it's a web server, then it would be accessible outside your home Internet network, would it not? Regarding the use cases for something like this, I can think of a few: - Roll-your-own cloud storage (pics, documents, videos) and access them anywhere you are. No need to hand over more of your data to iCloud, Dropbox etc - Host a personal website. For the types that complain about being deplatformed from Twitter or whatever, here's the solution. - Pihole or the nearest equivalent. All devices could have network-wide adblocking automatically.
- Flip-per 7y ago
  To reach your freedombox from the internet you can: use a public IP address, use DynDNS, use PageKite, or use TOR. About connecting boxes: FreedomBox is a platform for services/apps that then can connect. About integration work: True; Some apps are indeed one-click installations and are running and usable after that, others (e.g. tahoe-lafs) would need more setup to be actually usable.
rlt 7y ago
My main issue with things like this is security. I don't particularly want to be responsible for running Internet-facing services as a hobby. I would only consider it if they had a good track record and really solid story around security, perhaps including rapid automatic updates or a remote kill switch in case something critical is found.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  People are already running home servers. It's just that we call them 'modems' and 'routers'. Most come with few if any system updates. Enough that the FBI have issued national alerts to reboot routers[0]. Turris Omnia[1], based on OpenWRT and maintained by the Czech national domain registrar, is a notable exception, and it is itself a highly capable server. It updates automatically and regularly over the network. With the (optional, supported, and documented[2]) addition of an SSD storage, or an external drive (USB or network), it can provide read/write-heavy services as well (otherwise the onboard flash storage wears too quickly). Though standing in as a personal social/media server is not its core goal. Disclaimer: happy owner. ________________________________ Notes: 0. https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/05/fbi-kindly-reboot-your-router-now-please/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/05/fbi-kindly-reboot-your-r... 1. https://www.turris.cz/turris-omnia/ https://www.turris.cz/turris-omnia/ 2. mSATA drive installation: https://youtube.com/watch?v=71_M2N3ga7s https://youtube.com/watch?v=71_M2N3ga7s
  - diminoten 7y ago
    Wait so is your argument that people are already vulnerable so being vulnerable twice is okay?
    - FiddlyPack 7y ago
      I think the argument is that all of our personal servers should be treated as such (that is, not appliances that require zero maintenance), and that this is a step in that direction. All the router hacking of 2018 was possible because we treated our home Internet services as dumb-connections instead of treating them as the vulnerable “Internet Services” that they are.
ausjke 7y ago
the stable release was in 2017.06 so almost two years, how often are they updating the code(e.g. security fixes) is this supposed to be standalone home server, or something like a node of a large self-organized network(private social network,etc)?
- jvalleroy 7y ago
  The stable release is Debian stable (Stretch) which still gets security fixes from Debian.
throw7 7y ago
The website says the hardware has built-in battery backup that can run it for 4 to 5 hours if power goes out. That is pretty dang cool.
whalabi 7y ago
Wow, I backed this on Kickstarter in 2011 for $60. I was supposed to receive "A custom made FreedomBox Foundation MicroSD card reader so you can keep your freedom running in style and a MicroSD card loaded with Freedom Box software" ...I have not received anything (yet?)
xvector 7y ago
What does this do that a Raspberry Pi or NAS does not? It just seems like an always-on computer, nothing revolutionary or new.
Animats 7y ago
This should support home automation devices, especially security cameras. Don't let that stuff go off-premises. Maybe log encrypted video to an external site, but with a key the external site does not have.
aabbcc1241 7y ago
Just by joining the zeronet[1], you get most of the functions you can get the clearnet in decentralized form: Forum, Blog, Social Network, Search Engine, Wiki, Mailing, Chats, e.t.c. [1] https://zeronet.io https://zeronet.io
montroser 7y ago
I love the vision, but there are some pretty sizable hurdles not so easy to clear. Dynamic IPs, ports blocked by over zealous ISPs, bandwidth throttling, power redundancy, etc, etc...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

142 points by holri 7y ago

Wonder who their target demographic is. People balk at paying for email from a known provider, let alone buy a box to run it out of their own home for $100. You’d have to have a lot of motivation to do so, and it feels like the Venn diagram of people who are savvy and motivated enough to care about digital privacy, intersected with those with technical skills feels like nearly 90% overlap. And I’m not so sure the privacy group is so sizable. I’d probably be in this camp but I really don’t want to have to worry about spam filters, triggering them in others by sending from my home ISP, nor dealing with backup or corrupted databases. Wonder what their plan is there... The average person who wants this without being their own sysadmin should probably just use Apple products. I work for Apple and can attest that privacy isn’t just marketing — it permeates all decision making in every discussion I’ve been a part of... sometimes making it harder or impossible to create the things we’d like to have (privacy wins). I know many on HN will want their “freedom” as in “freedom box,” but the average user massively benefits from an ecosystem designed to make things as easy, desirable, and supported as possible.

galonk 7y ago
It doesn't even do email, so you'd still be paying a known provider :)
kelnos 7y ago
I assume you're getting downvoted due to the Apple advocacy in your second paragraph, and hopefully not for your first paragraph. I entirely agree with that. I wish I didn't have to be cynical about things like this, but I just don't see the market for this device, and when it comes to social-network-like things, you need a large market for network effects to kick in.
- belorn 7y ago
  The initial idea was a device similar to a answering machine in size, price and interface. That is, a $10-$20 price range and a simple configure-once-and-forget interface. Pioneer Edition FreedomBox Home Server Kit is clearly not there yet, but I would hazard a guess that their target demographic is currently on developers and tech savvy privacy advocates who can afford a bit steeper price for a "server kit".
  - kelnos 7y ago
    But still, who would buy that $10-$20 device? If it doesn't replicate their Facebook/Instagram/whatever experience, and they don't know how to get their friends on it (the majority of whom probably aren't too privacy-conscious), it's just a paperweight
- ibeckermayer 7y ago
  You can get the same network effects of these cloud services through federated networks. Imagine "Federate-book" I run and host my own "Facebook wall" on my local box (or wherever I choose to host), friends can request access to view my content ("friend requests") which I can then control and manage myself, "Facebook groups" are hosted by wherever their creator decides, and moderation is the right/responsibility of the creator of the group. If some host-er of the federate-book wants to aggregate my data and sell it to third parties, they can make that clear in their terms and I can opt-in/out of that arrangement. If my host-er wants to use machine learning and other methods to wipe my feed of their definition of "abuse" or "fake news", they can try that and I can determine if I trust their judgement. I'll choose whether I want to hear what Alex Jones has to say for myself, thank you very much. If somebody is illicitly calling for violence and should be forcefully banned and punished, then this can be dealt with by the (admittedly imperfect,) relatively transparent and principled system of laws that include foundational principles of justice like innocence until proven guilty, and the rights of the accused to defend themselves. The status quo cloud-silos governed by a small group of executives opining about what censorship-policies will garner them the greatest profits next quarter are dangerous single points of failure for user privacy, and inherently at risk for becoming tools of tyrannical control and manipulation. Yes there is much work to be done in building good protocols for federated social networks that even grandma can make use of, but guess whose fault that is? "The cloud" didn't exist 20 years ago either, and its ubiquity and ease of use should be attributed to the literal billions (if not trillions) of dollars of R&D that has been thrown at it. We really can "have our cake and eat it too" in this domain, if the engineers and venture capitalists that build/fund these tools directed R&D appropriately. As the (predictable but unfortunately unmitigated) true cost of a generation of "cloud" mania slowly becomes apparent to the general public, we will likely see a greater groundswell of market demand "fediverse" products and services. Undoubtedly the rent-seeking cloud providers will try and prevent this through propaganda and by force -- we're already seeing this in the "fake news" hysteria and Zuckerberg's call for regulation of social media. But if America's legal institutions and popular support can hold the barbarians at bay, we will hopefully be living with a very different internet 20 years from now. (Didn't really know where I would end up with this comment and it sort of turned into a rallying cry so I'll go with it. Yeah HN, let's do it!)
frenchy 7y ago
I think the target market is a little larger than you think. The problem with Apple products is that they're a walled garden, and an expensive one to boot. My privacy isn't worth $4000 for a set of new computers, but it might be worth $100. I'd still probably end up using Linux for my day-to-day programming needs, because I find it easier to use. While I suspect most of the target market could set up their own server (it's not rocket science-a smart 12 year-old could), a lot of us couldn't be bothered. A lot of people who buy hammers at the store probably could make their own hammer in their shop, but why would they? Also, speaking of 12-year olds, I think this would be a great thing for kids to tinker with .. set up their own website and whatnot.

galonk 7y ago

These home server boxes never include self-hosting email. Is it because anyone running their own SMTP is assumed to be a spammer? It's annoying because hosted email services are strangely expensive. Oh, they'll let you have multiple email addresses for a low rate, but as soon as you want multiple mailboxes (which is just a separate directory as far as the server is concerned), suddenly I'm paying way way more.

DenseComet 7y ago
Its usually because residential IPs block port 25 so a mail server would not even be able to receive mail
- scarhill 7y ago
  I know that residential ISPs block outgoing port 25 because of the spam issue. Is it common for them to block it incoming as well? You don't really need outgoing port 25 to run your own mail server.
  - progval 7y ago
    > You don't really need outgoing port 25 to run your own mail server. You do need it to send mail
    - dredmorbius 7y ago
      Directly, yes, but not via a smart host, which is how most SOHO mailservers (where used) are configured. It's not quite a full-fledged, full-privilege system, but it continues to provide major benefits over Webmail or client-based (POPS, IMAPS) configurations.
  - allset_ 7y ago
    You definitely need outbound port 25/587 if you want to send email to others.
    - 7y ago

bloopernova 7y ago

Interesting concept. A user friendly Pi-alike that runs services locally so you don't have to trust the big corporations. (said corporations may have very different goals than you do for your data, he says as neutrally as possible...) I'm very happy that such things are possible nowadays: small inexpensive hardware running Linux, with some well constructed software UI on top. Similar to what Mozilla is doing with their IoT webthings gateway (which I have running on my Retropie since most of the time it sits idle and sips tiny amounts of power). I know it's "on the shoulders of giants" but I think we shouldn't underestimate the power that an open, hackable platform like the Pi gives back to people.

duskwuff 7y ago

As I've mentioned on other stories about this device (like [1]), a part of the user story that's still missing is how these devices are supposed to interact with each other. Running a few web services inside your home network is neat, I guess, but not very useful if they're only accessible within that network. There's also a lot of weird overlap between the services provided by the various apps installed by FreedomBox. It's unclear how much, if any, integration work FreedomBox is doing, or if the user is expected to do that on their own. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19722179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19722179

wmf 7y ago
I assume you give the box a public IP and use protocols like ActivityPub to federate.
rchaud 7y ago
If it's a web server, then it would be accessible outside your home Internet network, would it not? Regarding the use cases for something like this, I can think of a few: - Roll-your-own cloud storage (pics, documents, videos) and access them anywhere you are. No need to hand over more of your data to iCloud, Dropbox etc - Host a personal website. For the types that complain about being deplatformed from Twitter or whatever, here's the solution. - Pihole or the nearest equivalent. All devices could have network-wide adblocking automatically.
Flip-per 7y ago
To reach your freedombox from the internet you can: use a public IP address, use DynDNS, use PageKite, or use TOR. About connecting boxes: FreedomBox is a platform for services/apps that then can connect. About integration work: True; Some apps are indeed one-click installations and are running and usable after that, others (e.g. tahoe-lafs) would need more setup to be actually usable.

rlt 7y ago

My main issue with things like this is security. I don't particularly want to be responsible for running Internet-facing services as a hobby. I would only consider it if they had a good track record and really solid story around security, perhaps including rapid automatic updates or a remote kill switch in case something critical is found.

dredmorbius 7y ago
People are already running home servers. It's just that we call them 'modems' and 'routers'. Most come with few if any system updates. Enough that the FBI have issued national alerts to reboot routers[0]. Turris Omnia[1], based on OpenWRT and maintained by the Czech national domain registrar, is a notable exception, and it is itself a highly capable server. It updates automatically and regularly over the network. With the (optional, supported, and documented[2]) addition of an SSD storage, or an external drive (USB or network), it can provide read/write-heavy services as well (otherwise the onboard flash storage wears too quickly). Though standing in as a personal social/media server is not its core goal. Disclaimer: happy owner. ________________________________ Notes: 0. https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/05/fbi-kindly-reboot-your-router-now-please/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/05/fbi-kindly-reboot-your-r... 1. https://www.turris.cz/turris-omnia/ https://www.turris.cz/turris-omnia/ 2. mSATA drive installation: https://youtube.com/watch?v=71_M2N3ga7s https://youtube.com/watch?v=71_M2N3ga7s
- diminoten 7y ago
  Wait so is your argument that people are already vulnerable so being vulnerable twice is okay?
  - FiddlyPack 7y ago
    I think the argument is that all of our personal servers should be treated as such (that is, not appliances that require zero maintenance), and that this is a step in that direction. All the router hacking of 2018 was possible because we treated our home Internet services as dumb-connections instead of treating them as the vulnerable “Internet Services” that they are.

ausjke 7y ago

the stable release was in 2017.06 so almost two years, how often are they updating the code(e.g. security fixes) is this supposed to be standalone home server, or something like a node of a large self-organized network(private social network,etc)?

jvalleroy 7y ago
The stable release is Debian stable (Stretch) which still gets security fixes from Debian.

throw7 7y ago

The website says the hardware has built-in battery backup that can run it for 4 to 5 hours if power goes out. That is pretty dang cool.

whalabi 7y ago

Wow, I backed this on Kickstarter in 2011 for $60. I was supposed to receive "A custom made FreedomBox Foundation MicroSD card reader so you can keep your freedom running in style and a MicroSD card loaded with Freedom Box software" ...I have not received anything (yet?)

xvector 7y ago

What does this do that a Raspberry Pi or NAS does not? It just seems like an always-on computer, nothing revolutionary or new.

Animats 7y ago

This should support home automation devices, especially security cameras. Don't let that stuff go off-premises. Maybe log encrypted video to an external site, but with a key the external site does not have.

aabbcc1241 7y ago

Just by joining the zeronet[1], you get most of the functions you can get the clearnet in decentralized form: Forum, Blog, Social Network, Search Engine, Wiki, Mailing, Chats, e.t.c. [1] https://zeronet.io https://zeronet.io

montroser 7y ago

I love the vision, but there are some pretty sizable hurdles not so easy to clear. Dynamic IPs, ports blocked by over zealous ISPs, bandwidth throttling, power redundancy, etc, etc...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]