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If your understanding of unions begins and ends in terms of what's "in it for me" then I'd urge you to rephrase the question: "what's in it for us?" And then e

If your understanding of unions begins and ends in terms of what's "in it for me" then I'd urge you to rephrase the question: "what's in it for us?" And then expand "us" to the people you care about. As it turns out, quite a lot. In the original article, we're potentially talking about the safety and privacy of hundreds of millions. In more day-to-day union campaigns, you'd be organizing so that your coworkers can have a place to work where they're not harassed, underpaid, or bullied by systems out of their control to create technology that harms people. Admittedly in the US it's not much leverage we have, but you could rest assured that if you were victim of an injustice by your boss, they'd have your back too. It's about taking back just a little bit of control over what you use your skills to work on, and how. Some people would rather take orders from their boss until they die, but especially in software there seems to a collective desire for more accountability from the bottom up, and maybe a union is what that will look like.

Kalium 7y ago
> If your understanding of unions begins and ends in terms of what's "in it for me" then I'd urge you to rephrase the question: "what's in it for us?" Respectfully, and with a heavy heart, I must decline to do so. I am not interested in some nebulous "us", doubly so one that is poorly defined. I want to know how a union will improve my life. It's far too easy to sacrifice me in the interests of "us". After you, my friend. I do not want to hear how a union will improve the safety and privacy of hundreds of millions. That's the job of governments. I want to hear about how a union will improve my privacy and safety. I want to hear about how this union will unconditionally have my back. I want to hear how you propose to make sure that a union doesn't turn into another way to bully, harass, and sit in arbitrary moralistic judgment of workers. Alternatively, tell me how your union will expel - and render unemployable - practicioners who through ignorance, negligence, and recklessness endanger the safety and privacy of hundreds of millions. I have worked with more than a few engineers in my time who have been guilty of that. No warnings, no slap on the wrist, just up-front education and swift, harsh incentives to be careful and not fuck up. I know, I know, unrealistic and cruel, right? No need to wreck someone's livelihood, right? You're absolutely right, of course. It's in every way about taking back control. You'll have to excuse me if I'm reluctant to take it back from one faceless and unaccountable group that doesn't care about me so I can hand it to another faceless and unaccountable group that doesn't care about me. That seems like a needlessly complex way to not solve the problems at hand.
- anarchodev 7y ago
  These are good questions to ask of any union IMO. Workers wouldn't join a union they felt didn't advance their interests (and anecdotally, there's gotta be a reason union members are crazy about unions, right?) So this is good to investigate. Perhaps purporting to look out for the interests of an entire nation is too broad for any one organization. Some questions about your assignment of responsibilities that I think will clear things up: what if, hypothetically, the government was run by a ruling class who would leverage your need for income, healthcare, etc., in order to make you build things you didn't want to build? And specifically speaking of surveillance technology, what if you suspected they were building these tools for other countries as a trial run to later use on their own citizens? It's not that far-fetched. Otherwise, I think you have some great questions to ask of any union you're considering to represent you. But you're also representing them -- if you felt like you wouldn't get a say in what collective actions were taken, that's not a union I'd encourage you to work with. I specifically mentioned mine because I know their track record and philosophy and would like to see more of it. There's no hierarchy, no inaccessible higher realm of bureaucrats making the decisions, it's workers all the way down! Ask your local branch about it. Although there are often differences in opinion, bullying or harassing workers is not tolerated. Will it immediately and permanently improve your life? This ain't a fad diet and I won't market it like one, it's a chore sometimes honestly. I don't go to meetings and pay dues because I love it all the time. But I've seen results, and seen how much those in power want to keep us from realizing our collective ability to win some of their power through organizing. And I think you'll agree that the trajectory we're currently on is grim. Think it over.
  - Kalium 7y ago
    I've known union workers who love it and I've known union workers who didn't. Both are common enough to be impossible to generalize from beyond opinions being as diverse as people. Anyone who says "there's no hierarchy" is, without exception, wrong. All they actually mean is "there is no explicit hierarchy". There's always an implicit one. The big difference between the two is generally accountability - explicit hierarchies can have it structured in. Implicit hierarchies get to say "We're all just workers here!" to dodge accountability. > And I think you'll agree that the trajectory we're currently on is grim. Think it over. You're right. I do agree. That said, I also grew up in a place where short-sighted unions helped turn a thriving industrial area into a post-industrial wasteland. Just because one course is grim doesn't mean I want to trade it for any other course.

Kalium 7y ago

> If your understanding of unions begins and ends in terms of what's "in it for me" then I'd urge you to rephrase the question: "what's in it for us?" Respectfully, and with a heavy heart, I must decline to do so. I am not interested in some nebulous "us", doubly so one that is poorly defined. I want to know how a union will improve my life. It's far too easy to sacrifice me in the interests of "us". After you, my friend. I do not want to hear how a union will improve the safety and privacy of hundreds of millions. That's the job of governments. I want to hear about how a union will improve my privacy and safety. I want to hear about how this union will unconditionally have my back. I want to hear how you propose to make sure that a union doesn't turn into another way to bully, harass, and sit in arbitrary moralistic judgment of workers. Alternatively, tell me how your union will expel - and render unemployable - practicioners who through ignorance, negligence, and recklessness endanger the safety and privacy of hundreds of millions. I have worked with more than a few engineers in my time who have been guilty of that. No warnings, no slap on the wrist, just up-front education and swift, harsh incentives to be careful and not fuck up. I know, I know, unrealistic and cruel, right? No need to wreck someone's livelihood, right? You're absolutely right, of course. It's in every way about taking back control. You'll have to excuse me if I'm reluctant to take it back from one faceless and unaccountable group that doesn't care about me so I can hand it to another faceless and unaccountable group that doesn't care about me. That seems like a needlessly complex way to not solve the problems at hand.

anarchodev 7y ago
These are good questions to ask of any union IMO. Workers wouldn't join a union they felt didn't advance their interests (and anecdotally, there's gotta be a reason union members are crazy about unions, right?) So this is good to investigate. Perhaps purporting to look out for the interests of an entire nation is too broad for any one organization. Some questions about your assignment of responsibilities that I think will clear things up: what if, hypothetically, the government was run by a ruling class who would leverage your need for income, healthcare, etc., in order to make you build things you didn't want to build? And specifically speaking of surveillance technology, what if you suspected they were building these tools for other countries as a trial run to later use on their own citizens? It's not that far-fetched. Otherwise, I think you have some great questions to ask of any union you're considering to represent you. But you're also representing them -- if you felt like you wouldn't get a say in what collective actions were taken, that's not a union I'd encourage you to work with. I specifically mentioned mine because I know their track record and philosophy and would like to see more of it. There's no hierarchy, no inaccessible higher realm of bureaucrats making the decisions, it's workers all the way down! Ask your local branch about it. Although there are often differences in opinion, bullying or harassing workers is not tolerated. Will it immediately and permanently improve your life? This ain't a fad diet and I won't market it like one, it's a chore sometimes honestly. I don't go to meetings and pay dues because I love it all the time. But I've seen results, and seen how much those in power want to keep us from realizing our collective ability to win some of their power through organizing. And I think you'll agree that the trajectory we're currently on is grim. Think it over.
- Kalium 7y ago
  I've known union workers who love it and I've known union workers who didn't. Both are common enough to be impossible to generalize from beyond opinions being as diverse as people. Anyone who says "there's no hierarchy" is, without exception, wrong. All they actually mean is "there is no explicit hierarchy". There's always an implicit one. The big difference between the two is generally accountability - explicit hierarchies can have it structured in. Implicit hierarchies get to say "We're all just workers here!" to dodge accountability. > And I think you'll agree that the trajectory we're currently on is grim. Think it over. You're right. I do agree. That said, I also grew up in a place where short-sighted unions helped turn a thriving industrial area into a post-industrial wasteland. Just because one course is grim doesn't mean I want to trade it for any other course.