4 ms·

While it's true that getting "up and running" with a simple project is only a matter of getting a working laptop and internet connection (and a bootcamp if one

While it's true that getting "up and running" with a simple project is only a matter of getting a working laptop and internet connection (and a bootcamp if one is available to you), getting into the position where you could build (or not build) a system capable of broadly violating human rights on behalf of an oppressive government is not an opportunity most workers have. If you're interested in the sort of union that could help you take action in your workplace I'd recommend looking into the Tech Workers Coalition -- there's an active community online and probably a branch near you. Further down in this thread the discussion has broadened to worker rights in tech-adjacent jobs (eg. amazon warehouses). It would be great if we could have one big union that fights for the rights of all workers, and if you think so too you should look into joining the IWW. Yes, our society does need to adopt morality and ethics as guiding principles in our work, and organizing your workplace is not some orthogonal venture but is actually part of that goal.

Kalium 7y ago
> It would be great if we could have one big union that fights for the rights of all workers, and if you think so too you should look into joining the IWW. Given how often the interests of various workers can and do conflict, this strikes me as an idea possessed of a wonderful opportunity to come into greater alignment with reality. As are those who advocate it. I always ask would-be tech union organizers the same question: what's in it for me? Rarely do I get good answers back. Unions aren't about moralizing. They're about self-interest. Show me that you're going to advance mine, and we can talk.
- anarchodev 7y ago
  If your understanding of unions begins and ends in terms of what's "in it for me" then I'd urge you to rephrase the question: "what's in it for us?" And then expand "us" to the people you care about. As it turns out, quite a lot. In the original article, we're potentially talking about the safety and privacy of hundreds of millions. In more day-to-day union campaigns, you'd be organizing so that your coworkers can have a place to work where they're not harassed, underpaid, or bullied by systems out of their control to create technology that harms people. Admittedly in the US it's not much leverage we have, but you could rest assured that if you were victim of an injustice by your boss, they'd have your back too. It's about taking back just a little bit of control over what you use your skills to work on, and how. Some people would rather take orders from their boss until they die, but especially in software there seems to a collective desire for more accountability from the bottom up, and maybe a union is what that will look like.
  - Kalium 7y ago
    > If your understanding of unions begins and ends in terms of what's "in it for me" then I'd urge you to rephrase the question: "what's in it for us?" Respectfully, and with a heavy heart, I must decline to do so. I am not interested in some nebulous "us", doubly so one that is poorly defined. I want to know how a union will improve my life. It's far too easy to sacrifice me in the interests of "us". After you, my friend. I do not want to hear how a union will improve the safety and privacy of hundreds of millions. That's the job of governments. I want to hear about how a union will improve my privacy and safety. I want to hear about how this union will unconditionally have my back. I want to hear how you propose to make sure that a union doesn't turn into another way to bully, harass, and sit in arbitrary moralistic judgment of workers. Alternatively, tell me how your union will expel - and render unemployable - practicioners who through ignorance, negligence, and recklessness endanger the safety and privacy of hundreds of millions. I have worked with more than a few engineers in my time who have been guilty of that. No warnings, no slap on the wrist, just up-front education and swift, harsh incentives to be careful and not fuck up. I know, I know, unrealistic and cruel, right? No need to wreck someone's livelihood, right? You're absolutely right, of course. It's in every way about taking back control. You'll have to excuse me if I'm reluctant to take it back from one faceless and unaccountable group that doesn't care about me so I can hand it to another faceless and unaccountable group that doesn't care about me. That seems like a needlessly complex way to not solve the problems at hand.
    - anarchodev 7y ago
      These are good questions to ask of any union IMO. Workers wouldn't join a union they felt didn't advance their interests (and anecdotally, there's gotta be a reason union members are crazy about unions, right?) So this is good to investigate. Perhaps purporting to look out for the interests of an entire nation is too broad for any one organization. Some questions about your assignment of responsibilities that I think will clear things up: what if, hypothetically, the government was run by a ruling class who would leverage your need for income, healthcare, etc., in order to make you build things you didn't want to build? And specifically speaking of surveillance technology, what if you suspected they were building these tools for other countries as a trial run to later use on their own citizens? It's not that far-fetched. Otherwise, I think you have some great questions to ask of any union you're considering to represent you. But you're also representing them -- if you felt like you wouldn't get a say in what collective actions were taken, that's not a union I'd encourage you to work with. I specifically mentioned mine because I know their track record and philosophy and would like to see more of it. There's no hierarchy, no inaccessible higher realm of bureaucrats making the decisions, it's workers all the way down! Ask your local branch about it. Although there are often differences in opinion, bullying or harassing workers is not tolerated. Will it immediately and permanently improve your life? This ain't a fad diet and I won't market it like one, it's a chore sometimes honestly. I don't go to meetings and pay dues because I love it all the time. But I've seen results, and seen how much those in power want to keep us from realizing our collective ability to win some of their power through organizing. And I think you'll agree that the trajectory we're currently on is grim. Think it over.
analognoise 7y ago
"getting into the position where you could build (or not build) a system capable of broadly violating human rights on behalf of an oppressive government is not an opportunity most workers have." Come join the Evil Mastermind Technical Union! We have workshops on supertech, the latest coming advances, we sponsor work and mentoring programs for young Evil Geniuses (including internships!) as well as seasoned practitioners of Forbidden Tech! Last year one of our top candidates improved the speed of facial recognition at checkpoints in a "repressive regime", leading to the arrest of a whole slew of dissidents who had previously eluded the authorities! These kids are going places - and the targets of their employers are going to the gallows/dungeon/gulag/graves, that's for sure! Join TODAY!

Kalium 7y ago

> It would be great if we could have one big union that fights for the rights of all workers, and if you think so too you should look into joining the IWW. Given how often the interests of various workers can and do conflict, this strikes me as an idea possessed of a wonderful opportunity to come into greater alignment with reality. As are those who advocate it. I always ask would-be tech union organizers the same question: what's in it for me? Rarely do I get good answers back. Unions aren't about moralizing. They're about self-interest. Show me that you're going to advance mine, and we can talk.

anarchodev 7y ago
If your understanding of unions begins and ends in terms of what's "in it for me" then I'd urge you to rephrase the question: "what's in it for us?" And then expand "us" to the people you care about. As it turns out, quite a lot. In the original article, we're potentially talking about the safety and privacy of hundreds of millions. In more day-to-day union campaigns, you'd be organizing so that your coworkers can have a place to work where they're not harassed, underpaid, or bullied by systems out of their control to create technology that harms people. Admittedly in the US it's not much leverage we have, but you could rest assured that if you were victim of an injustice by your boss, they'd have your back too. It's about taking back just a little bit of control over what you use your skills to work on, and how. Some people would rather take orders from their boss until they die, but especially in software there seems to a collective desire for more accountability from the bottom up, and maybe a union is what that will look like.
- Kalium 7y ago
  > If your understanding of unions begins and ends in terms of what's "in it for me" then I'd urge you to rephrase the question: "what's in it for us?" Respectfully, and with a heavy heart, I must decline to do so. I am not interested in some nebulous "us", doubly so one that is poorly defined. I want to know how a union will improve my life. It's far too easy to sacrifice me in the interests of "us". After you, my friend. I do not want to hear how a union will improve the safety and privacy of hundreds of millions. That's the job of governments. I want to hear about how a union will improve my privacy and safety. I want to hear about how this union will unconditionally have my back. I want to hear how you propose to make sure that a union doesn't turn into another way to bully, harass, and sit in arbitrary moralistic judgment of workers. Alternatively, tell me how your union will expel - and render unemployable - practicioners who through ignorance, negligence, and recklessness endanger the safety and privacy of hundreds of millions. I have worked with more than a few engineers in my time who have been guilty of that. No warnings, no slap on the wrist, just up-front education and swift, harsh incentives to be careful and not fuck up. I know, I know, unrealistic and cruel, right? No need to wreck someone's livelihood, right? You're absolutely right, of course. It's in every way about taking back control. You'll have to excuse me if I'm reluctant to take it back from one faceless and unaccountable group that doesn't care about me so I can hand it to another faceless and unaccountable group that doesn't care about me. That seems like a needlessly complex way to not solve the problems at hand.
  - anarchodev 7y ago
    These are good questions to ask of any union IMO. Workers wouldn't join a union they felt didn't advance their interests (and anecdotally, there's gotta be a reason union members are crazy about unions, right?) So this is good to investigate. Perhaps purporting to look out for the interests of an entire nation is too broad for any one organization. Some questions about your assignment of responsibilities that I think will clear things up: what if, hypothetically, the government was run by a ruling class who would leverage your need for income, healthcare, etc., in order to make you build things you didn't want to build? And specifically speaking of surveillance technology, what if you suspected they were building these tools for other countries as a trial run to later use on their own citizens? It's not that far-fetched. Otherwise, I think you have some great questions to ask of any union you're considering to represent you. But you're also representing them -- if you felt like you wouldn't get a say in what collective actions were taken, that's not a union I'd encourage you to work with. I specifically mentioned mine because I know their track record and philosophy and would like to see more of it. There's no hierarchy, no inaccessible higher realm of bureaucrats making the decisions, it's workers all the way down! Ask your local branch about it. Although there are often differences in opinion, bullying or harassing workers is not tolerated. Will it immediately and permanently improve your life? This ain't a fad diet and I won't market it like one, it's a chore sometimes honestly. I don't go to meetings and pay dues because I love it all the time. But I've seen results, and seen how much those in power want to keep us from realizing our collective ability to win some of their power through organizing. And I think you'll agree that the trajectory we're currently on is grim. Think it over.

analognoise 7y ago

"getting into the position where you could build (or not build) a system capable of broadly violating human rights on behalf of an oppressive government is not an opportunity most workers have." Come join the Evil Mastermind Technical Union! We have workshops on supertech, the latest coming advances, we sponsor work and mentoring programs for young Evil Geniuses (including internships!) as well as seasoned practitioners of Forbidden Tech! Last year one of our top candidates improved the speed of facial recognition at checkpoints in a "repressive regime", leading to the arrest of a whole slew of dissidents who had previously eluded the authorities! These kids are going places - and the targets of their employers are going to the gallows/dungeon/gulag/graves, that's for sure! Join TODAY!