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How do you know that it wasn't you that was brainwashed by media to believe that your opposition are racists even when they tell you explicitly that their opini

How do you know that it wasn't you that was brainwashed by media to believe that your opposition are racists even when they tell you explicitly that their opinions have nothing to do with race?

naravara 8y ago
Because I actually spent time consciously deprogramming myself as I become aware of the perniciously racist elements of our culture natch. And it’s not complete. We all harbor some of the racist conditioning, I’m just willing to be cognizant of it because I think perpetuating racist things is worse than being called out on it.
- tomhoward 8y ago
  It's good that you are making the effort to "deprogram"yourself. I also put a lot of work into identifying and correcting unhealthy subconscious "programming". I've been doing it for 7 years, and continue to work at it daily. And yes, some of that programming has included judgements of others based on identity group, class, etc. But it's included a lot of things too, including the propensity to judge other people negatively for not having undertaken the kind of work I've done, or assuming that the same subconscious attitudes that existed in me, equally exist in others. It's not a productive or kind way to interact with people. The most important realisation we need to make when we start understanding our inner selves is that there's so much more that we don't understand, even within ourselves, let alone others. Given this, it's not for us to make assumptions about what exists inside others or pronouncements about what others should think or do.
  - naravara 8y ago
    >Given this, it's not for us to make assumptions about what exists inside others or pronouncements about what others should think or do. This is basically just solipsism. The human condition is knowable, the concept of social science couldn't exist otherwise. There are numerous academic, clinical, epidemiological, and business disciplines that depend on doing exactly this. My personal background is in social science that I briefly applied to doing market research. But History, Sociology, Anthropology, Political Science, and tons of other fields also depend on being able to draw conclusions from making generalizable assumptions. The key problem here is hidden in this statement: >including the propensity to judge other people negatively for not having undertaken the kind of work I've done, or assuming that the same subconscious attitudes that existed in me, equally exist in others. You cannot make progress on addressing societal problems if the first reaction to even acknowledging the existence of the problem is to react negatively and to take the criticism as a personal attack. Frequently people act like being called racist is worse than actually perpetuating racism and that needs to change. There is no process to engage in that sort of growth in character without promoting some level of discomfort.
    - malvosenior 8y ago
      > The human condition is knowable, the concept of social science couldn't exist otherwise. The fields of social "science" are having an existential crisis. It's not science if you can't reproduce it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis > Frequently people act like being called racist is worse than actually perpetuating racism and that needs to change. Calling someone a racist when they're not is just as bad as perpetuating racism. This is why people perceive your argument to be a personal attack, because it is. > There is no process to engage in that sort of growth in character without promoting some level of discomfort. If you're unwilling to question your own assumptions and experience discomfort, then you are also not growing in character.
      - naravara 8y ago
        >Calling someone a racist when they're not is just as bad as perpetuating racism. Is this satire? Are you sincerely claiming that actually doing something bad is worse than being told you're doing something bad? This is child logic. This is logic that privileges your feelings over actual objective reality.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        malvosenior 8y ago
        Accusing people of racism when they're not racist is doing something bad. Just like racism is bad. Both are and neither help anything.
    - tomhoward 8y ago
      You can call it solipsism for your own reasons, but what have you done to ensure you're operating with adequate levels of humility, compassion and objectivity? It's not a clinical setting or a formal study involving willing participants. Invoking academic concepts to make unsolicited diagnoses of people's inner thoughts and motivations is not ethical, nor a good-faith form of discussion, and doing so can only bring about more polarisation and resistance. It's due to this propensity among activists across the political spectrum, that our standard of discourse is so low, and that hardline ideological positions keep becoming more entrenched. For this to change, we need more people to undertake deep inner work on themselves for sincere and earnest reasons, rather than making unsolicited diagnoses of strangers on internet discussion boards and espousing simplistic explanations for the deeply complex problems in the world for the sake of ideological point-scoring.

How do you know that it wasn't you that was brainwashed by media to believe that your opposition are racists even when they tell you explicitly that their opinions have nothing to do with race?

naravara 8y ago

Because I actually spent time consciously deprogramming myself as I become aware of the perniciously racist elements of our culture natch. And it’s not complete. We all harbor some of the racist conditioning, I’m just willing to be cognizant of it because I think perpetuating racist things is worse than being called out on it.

tomhoward 8y ago
It's good that you are making the effort to "deprogram"yourself. I also put a lot of work into identifying and correcting unhealthy subconscious "programming". I've been doing it for 7 years, and continue to work at it daily. And yes, some of that programming has included judgements of others based on identity group, class, etc. But it's included a lot of things too, including the propensity to judge other people negatively for not having undertaken the kind of work I've done, or assuming that the same subconscious attitudes that existed in me, equally exist in others. It's not a productive or kind way to interact with people. The most important realisation we need to make when we start understanding our inner selves is that there's so much more that we don't understand, even within ourselves, let alone others. Given this, it's not for us to make assumptions about what exists inside others or pronouncements about what others should think or do.
- naravara 8y ago
  >Given this, it's not for us to make assumptions about what exists inside others or pronouncements about what others should think or do. This is basically just solipsism. The human condition is knowable, the concept of social science couldn't exist otherwise. There are numerous academic, clinical, epidemiological, and business disciplines that depend on doing exactly this. My personal background is in social science that I briefly applied to doing market research. But History, Sociology, Anthropology, Political Science, and tons of other fields also depend on being able to draw conclusions from making generalizable assumptions. The key problem here is hidden in this statement: >including the propensity to judge other people negatively for not having undertaken the kind of work I've done, or assuming that the same subconscious attitudes that existed in me, equally exist in others. You cannot make progress on addressing societal problems if the first reaction to even acknowledging the existence of the problem is to react negatively and to take the criticism as a personal attack. Frequently people act like being called racist is worse than actually perpetuating racism and that needs to change. There is no process to engage in that sort of growth in character without promoting some level of discomfort.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    > The human condition is knowable, the concept of social science couldn't exist otherwise. The fields of social "science" are having an existential crisis. It's not science if you can't reproduce it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis > Frequently people act like being called racist is worse than actually perpetuating racism and that needs to change. Calling someone a racist when they're not is just as bad as perpetuating racism. This is why people perceive your argument to be a personal attack, because it is. > There is no process to engage in that sort of growth in character without promoting some level of discomfort. If you're unwilling to question your own assumptions and experience discomfort, then you are also not growing in character.
    - naravara 8y ago
      >Calling someone a racist when they're not is just as bad as perpetuating racism. Is this satire? Are you sincerely claiming that actually doing something bad is worse than being told you're doing something bad? This is child logic. This is logic that privileges your feelings over actual objective reality.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - malvosenior 8y ago
        Accusing people of racism when they're not racist is doing something bad. Just like racism is bad. Both are and neither help anything.
  - tomhoward 8y ago
    You can call it solipsism for your own reasons, but what have you done to ensure you're operating with adequate levels of humility, compassion and objectivity? It's not a clinical setting or a formal study involving willing participants. Invoking academic concepts to make unsolicited diagnoses of people's inner thoughts and motivations is not ethical, nor a good-faith form of discussion, and doing so can only bring about more polarisation and resistance. It's due to this propensity among activists across the political spectrum, that our standard of discourse is so low, and that hardline ideological positions keep becoming more entrenched. For this to change, we need more people to undertake deep inner work on themselves for sincere and earnest reasons, rather than making unsolicited diagnoses of strangers on internet discussion boards and espousing simplistic explanations for the deeply complex problems in the world for the sake of ideological point-scoring.