5 ms·

Yeah, VNC is just way better. Even running a local Docker container and using X11 forwarding is extremely slow.

jolmg 8y ago
It depends on how you define better. VNC may be faster, but it's just because X carries a lot of historical cruft, I believe. Usability-wise, X is more flexible. I can move individual windows between computers in X. I can't do that with VNC. I wouldn't mind doing the jump to Wayland if it were as flexible as X, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Correct me if I'm wrong.
- altmind 8y ago
  what's the point of running program locally, to be rendered locally, sending the primitives to Xorg server to be displayed somewhere else? is it using Xorg as a network proxy?
  - josteink 8y ago
    I think you got it kinda backwards, but due to confusing naming you wouldn’t be the first. It’s more like I’m logging into a remote server (using stuff like SSH), starting applications there and getting the GUI up on my local desktop, like any other local window/app, due to X-forwarding (back to my Xorg server). It’s not perfect, but it sure is a lot more “natural” and integrated into your desktop than VNC or RDP. I hope we can keep something similar with Wayland (using maybe XWayland or other compatibility kludges). I think it’s pretty nice.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      RDP has had remote app for a long time now, which is essentially the same thing: run program on remote machine, forward its window to local.
      - mindcrime 8y ago
        Interesting, I've never heard of that facility before. I guess it wasn't promoted very heavily? Or maybe it's just because RDP comes from the MS world and I try very hard to avoid Windows and anything Windows-centric unless forced to. Anyway, thanks for sharing that. I'll look into it. Here's some info on RemoteApp for anybody else who's interested. https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/Enterprise-Mobility-Security/Introducing-RemoteApp-and-Desktop-Connections/ba-p/246803 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/Enterprise-Mobility-S... https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/2345.publish-a-remoteapp-application-on-remote-desktop-service.aspx https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/...
        magicalhippo 8y ago
        > Or maybe it's just because RDP comes from the MS world and I try very hard to avoid Windows and anything Windows-centric unless forced to. It'll be due to that. For the most part it works really well, though still not flawless after all these years.
        josteink 8y ago
        Thanks for the links! Reading those though, I’m kind of underwhelmed. You have to have a dedicated Windows Terminal Server installation (which I’m sure has expensive and complicated licensing), on that you have to “publish apps” (which seems like a process in itself), on the client you need to subscribe to feeds. And after about 100 such individual steps... magic. With X11 I just forward a socket, launch a normal program normally, and everything just works. That’s just so much simpler, so much easier to work with and easier to understand. I can do it casually, on demand, when I need it. No preparation needed. That Windows thing... looks expensive and something you which takes planning.
      - DonHopkins 8y ago
        The Andrew Window Manager / Andrew User Interface System / Andrew User Environment supported remote display of windows on a workstation display before X-Windows, circa 1985. Andrew was used by lots of people at CMU where it was developed, and also externally. And a lot of the people who worked on Andrew also worked on X10, X11, NeWS, and even (much later) Java. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Project >Initially the system was prototyped on Sun Microsystems machines, and then to IBM RT PC series computers running a special IBM Academic Operating System. People involved in the project included James H. Morris, Nathaniel Borenstein, James Gosling, and David S. H. Rosenthal. >The Andrew Window Manager (WM), a tiled (non-overlapping windows) window system which allowed remote display of windows on a workstation display. It was one of the first network-oriented window managers to run on Unix as a graphical display. As part of the CMU's partnership with IBM, IBM retained the licensing rights to WM. WM was meant to be licensed under reasonable terms, which CMU thought would resemble a relatively cheap UNIX license, while IBM sought a more lucrative licensing scheme. WM was later replaced by X11 from MIT. Its developers, Gosling and Rosenthal, would next develop the NeWS (Network extensible Window System). Andrew died! Andrew is dead! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZMuBIJxmnA&feature=youtu.be&t=2m49s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZMuBIJxmnA&feature=youtu.be... How often mankind has wished for a world as peaceful and secure as the one Andrew provided.
  - baq 8y ago
    in the usual case you ssh to a big fat box (the server) and run X clients; the X server is running on your ssh client box.
- DonHopkins 8y ago
  It's not "historical cruft" that makes it slow. It's the fundamental architecture of X-Windows that makes it slow. Computers these days are network bound, not CPU or memory bound. It's not sluggish because it's executing too much code or running out of memory or too complicated. It's sluggish because it's making the wrong decisions to do the wrong things at the wrong times in the wrong places.
- m463 8y ago
  I run proxmox on one system to run a few VMs. I view the vm console displays remotely in the browser using novnc. I thought it was pretty cool the first time I used it.
renox 8y ago
Uh? I much preferred NX instead of VNC because I didn't have to define the resolution when starting the server, plus it felt faster

It depends on how you define better. VNC may be faster, but it's just because X carries a lot of historical cruft, I believe. Usability-wise, X is more flexible. I can move individual windows between computers in X. I can't do that with VNC. I wouldn't mind doing the jump to Wayland if it were as flexible as X, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Correct me if I'm wrong.

altmind 8y ago
what's the point of running program locally, to be rendered locally, sending the primitives to Xorg server to be displayed somewhere else? is it using Xorg as a network proxy?
- josteink 8y ago
  I think you got it kinda backwards, but due to confusing naming you wouldn’t be the first. It’s more like I’m logging into a remote server (using stuff like SSH), starting applications there and getting the GUI up on my local desktop, like any other local window/app, due to X-forwarding (back to my Xorg server). It’s not perfect, but it sure is a lot more “natural” and integrated into your desktop than VNC or RDP. I hope we can keep something similar with Wayland (using maybe XWayland or other compatibility kludges). I think it’s pretty nice.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    RDP has had remote app for a long time now, which is essentially the same thing: run program on remote machine, forward its window to local.
    - mindcrime 8y ago
      Interesting, I've never heard of that facility before. I guess it wasn't promoted very heavily? Or maybe it's just because RDP comes from the MS world and I try very hard to avoid Windows and anything Windows-centric unless forced to. Anyway, thanks for sharing that. I'll look into it. Here's some info on RemoteApp for anybody else who's interested. https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/Enterprise-Mobility-Security/Introducing-RemoteApp-and-Desktop-Connections/ba-p/246803 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/Enterprise-Mobility-S... https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/2345.publish-a-remoteapp-application-on-remote-desktop-service.aspx https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/...
      - magicalhippo 8y ago
        > Or maybe it's just because RDP comes from the MS world and I try very hard to avoid Windows and anything Windows-centric unless forced to. It'll be due to that. For the most part it works really well, though still not flawless after all these years.
      - josteink 8y ago
        Thanks for the links! Reading those though, I’m kind of underwhelmed. You have to have a dedicated Windows Terminal Server installation (which I’m sure has expensive and complicated licensing), on that you have to “publish apps” (which seems like a process in itself), on the client you need to subscribe to feeds. And after about 100 such individual steps... magic. With X11 I just forward a socket, launch a normal program normally, and everything just works. That’s just so much simpler, so much easier to work with and easier to understand. I can do it casually, on demand, when I need it. No preparation needed. That Windows thing... looks expensive and something you which takes planning.
    - DonHopkins 8y ago
      The Andrew Window Manager / Andrew User Interface System / Andrew User Environment supported remote display of windows on a workstation display before X-Windows, circa 1985. Andrew was used by lots of people at CMU where it was developed, and also externally. And a lot of the people who worked on Andrew also worked on X10, X11, NeWS, and even (much later) Java. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Project >Initially the system was prototyped on Sun Microsystems machines, and then to IBM RT PC series computers running a special IBM Academic Operating System. People involved in the project included James H. Morris, Nathaniel Borenstein, James Gosling, and David S. H. Rosenthal. >The Andrew Window Manager (WM), a tiled (non-overlapping windows) window system which allowed remote display of windows on a workstation display. It was one of the first network-oriented window managers to run on Unix as a graphical display. As part of the CMU's partnership with IBM, IBM retained the licensing rights to WM. WM was meant to be licensed under reasonable terms, which CMU thought would resemble a relatively cheap UNIX license, while IBM sought a more lucrative licensing scheme. WM was later replaced by X11 from MIT. Its developers, Gosling and Rosenthal, would next develop the NeWS (Network extensible Window System). Andrew died! Andrew is dead! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZMuBIJxmnA&feature=youtu.be&t=2m49s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZMuBIJxmnA&feature=youtu.be... How often mankind has wished for a world as peaceful and secure as the one Andrew provided.
- baq 8y ago
  in the usual case you ssh to a big fat box (the server) and run X clients; the X server is running on your ssh client box.
DonHopkins 8y ago
It's not "historical cruft" that makes it slow. It's the fundamental architecture of X-Windows that makes it slow. Computers these days are network bound, not CPU or memory bound. It's not sluggish because it's executing too much code or running out of memory or too complicated. It's sluggish because it's making the wrong decisions to do the wrong things at the wrong times in the wrong places.
m463 8y ago
I run proxmox on one system to run a few VMs. I view the vm console displays remotely in the browser using novnc. I thought it was pretty cool the first time I used it.

renox 8y ago

Uh? I much preferred NX instead of VNC because I didn't have to define the resolution when starting the server, plus it felt faster