4 ms·

CTRL-F embed Nope, well... Maybe next year! I've been eyeing Rust for embedded but until there are major players shipping IDEs that natively support it, it's j

CTRL-F embed Nope, well... Maybe next year! I've been eyeing Rust for embedded but until there are major players shipping IDEs that natively support it, it's just a hobby thing. Embedded and IoT is about to get a lot bigger - if I was them I'd be focusing hard on it to make sure my language had a strong foothold for when there was a new hottness that all the kids start raving about.

stusmall 8y ago
It's in the more detailed roadmap RFC under the embedded WG: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/2657-roadmap-2019.md#embedded-bare-metal-devices https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/2657-road...
- Aissen 8y ago
  Which itself is hidden behind having a dropbox account: https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/ZmUYvRp4PjX1jqq6LSxcZ https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/ZmUYvRp4PjX1jqq6LSxcZ Can anyone copy/paste it somewhere else ?
  - KarboniteKream 8y ago
    Here you go! https://rentry.co/wyf5v https://rentry.co/wyf5v
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
_bxg1 8y ago
"Embedded and IoT is about to get a lot bigger" I'm curious what makes you think that? Culturally, I feel like there's been some general backlash to the gratuitous IoT-ification of every aspect of our lives, from a privacy perspective, a fragility perspective, and a "using apps to control everything isn't actually convenient" perspective: https://twitter.com/internetofshit https://twitter.com/internetofshit
- sanxiyn 8y ago
  I think Rust can help securing IoT devices.
  - _bxg1 8y ago
    The problem isn't (primarily) security. And in the cases where security is the concern, like electronic door locks, the problems usually come from sheer laziness; like giving every device the same unchangeable PIN, or sending things over the air in plaintext. Things that have nothing to do with the language.
    - vardump 8y ago
      Well, at least those who do implement security protocols correctly do not need to worry as much about random memory safety related exploit chains.
- SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
  Microsoft just purchased TheeadX. Amazon purchased FreeRTOS. Intel, Nordic and others are dumping time into Zepher. Those are three RTOSes specifically being designed to run IoT endpoints. I’m working with FreeRTOS and AWS IoT right now, and can tell you Amazon is taking it pretty seriously. I think 90% of IoT are devices that don’t need to be connected - no doubt. But mine does and sometimes it’s there are pretty awesome use cases for it. If Rust wants to make it to C-replacement, they should be bringing over backwards to get away from DoItAllYourself IDEs and into commercial products like Keil, IAR, Segger, Attolic, etc. I promise when E+++ or Swifterz or C% or whatever crazy new hotness shows up, Rust will be the hardest hit language to lose its enthusiasts.
  - steveklabnik 8y ago
    I don't know a bunch about it, but Azure IoT Edge (by Microsoft, as you'd expect) has a significant amount of Rust. I'm not sure if it's something that's directly comparable, but is at least somewhat similar.
cornstalks 8y ago
Several of these items are very relevant for the embedded world (custom registries, custom allocators, unsafe code guidelines, etc.). They just didn’t use the word “embed” in this short post.
- burfog 8y ago
  Do you know how difficult it is to write a position-independent blob that runs all by itself? Consider something like a boot loader or kernel, starting from a random location in memory. Can it run without needing assembly language? For example, C can often do this. You ask the linker to put a particular function first and to make everything position-independent. There can be some problems with the GNU toolchain stubbornly insisting on making a GOT, but the language is otherwise fully capable.
  - thenewwazoo 8y ago
    It's very easy, in fact. Because you don't use the stdlib, it requires handling some language items (the equivalent of having to write your own _start routine, for example). You set up vector tables just like normal, and you decorate things to tell the linker where to put them. The canonical example is https://github.com/rust-embedded/cortex-m-rt https://github.com/rust-embedded/cortex-m-rt if you want to get into the guts of how it works. For a more user-focused overview, check out https://github.com/rust-embedded/cortex-m-quickstart https://github.com/rust-embedded/cortex-m-quickstart, which is a good starting point from which to drill down.
zokier 8y ago
> Nope, well... Maybe next year! I've been eyeing Rust for embedded but until there are major players shipping IDEs that natively support it It is not obvious to me what more can the Rust team do here; it would seem like the ball is in the vendors court (or whoever counts as "major player"). Plenty of the groundwork has been already accomplished, and the embed-wg continues on their good work but they can't just conjure vendor support out of thin air
- SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
  I’m not saying hookers and blow... but I am saying the Rust group needs to be actively courting professional/commercial IDEs, and more so developing in such a way that an IDE could bring in the Rust compiler. Maybe it’s too early for that. Maybe it’s just the right time.
  - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
    > developing in such a way that an IDE could bring in the Rust compiler They are doing exactly that if you look at the "Compiler" section of the roadmap[1]. > One project worth calling out in more detail is the RLS 2.0 effort. The existing RLS, while functional, was never deeply integrated into rustc itself. Over the past two years, we have rewritten the back end of rustc to use an incremental and demand-driven infrastructure. To get the IDE experience we truly want, we need to see that work through for the front end of the compiler as well. However, this part of rustc is one of its oldest, and there are significant design questions involved in how best to do that. > This is where the RLS 2.0 effort comes in. The plan is to build a prototype of the new front-end, thus enabling a truly first-class IDE experience. Wherever possible, we aim to share code between this front-end and rustc by extracting libraries, such as Chalk (for traits), Polonius (for the borrow checker), and a new library focusing on name resolution. Eventually, we will merge this new front-end with the remaining bits of back-end from rustc. [1] https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/2657-roadmap-2019.md https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/2657-road...
- dcbadacd 8y ago
  Getting something like Arduino IDE is for C(++) for microcontrollers out there would be a great step forwards growing the community of Rust programmers.
lsllc 8y ago
Having done a lot of embedded work in both C and assembler, I'm really excited by the prospect of a type-safe, memory safe language with zero-cost abstractions that can compile down to [more or less] the same machine code that C would produce. For those interested, check out Jorge Aparicio's (japaric) RTFM2 series: http://blog.japaric.io/rtfm-v2/ http://blog.japaric.io/rtfm-v2/ (in particular the sections titled "Preemption" and "Critical sections and Threshold")
- SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
  Me too. But until I see Segger/Rowley or any of the second tier IDEs below Keil and IAR pushing first party support, I can’t even consider it. It’s a big leap from hobbiest to commercial with embedded. If I was part of the Rust group I’d be directly real resources into real embedded projects. You check Cargo for embedded now and might find a couple unsupported header files for different micros. It’s going to be a long time at this pace.
dcbadacd 8y ago
Also phones and other consumer electronics not strictly IoT, they too could benefit from more secure bootloaders, drivers and OS in general for example.

stusmall 8y ago

It's in the more detailed roadmap RFC under the embedded WG: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/2657-roadmap-2019.md#embedded-bare-metal-devices https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/2657-road...

Aissen 8y ago
Which itself is hidden behind having a dropbox account: https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/ZmUYvRp4PjX1jqq6LSxcZ https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/ZmUYvRp4PjX1jqq6LSxcZ Can anyone copy/paste it somewhere else ?
- KarboniteKream 8y ago
  Here you go! https://rentry.co/wyf5v https://rentry.co/wyf5v

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

_bxg1 8y ago

"Embedded and IoT is about to get a lot bigger" I'm curious what makes you think that? Culturally, I feel like there's been some general backlash to the gratuitous IoT-ification of every aspect of our lives, from a privacy perspective, a fragility perspective, and a "using apps to control everything isn't actually convenient" perspective: https://twitter.com/internetofshit https://twitter.com/internetofshit

sanxiyn 8y ago
I think Rust can help securing IoT devices.
- _bxg1 8y ago
  The problem isn't (primarily) security. And in the cases where security is the concern, like electronic door locks, the problems usually come from sheer laziness; like giving every device the same unchangeable PIN, or sending things over the air in plaintext. Things that have nothing to do with the language.
  - vardump 8y ago
    Well, at least those who do implement security protocols correctly do not need to worry as much about random memory safety related exploit chains.
SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
Microsoft just purchased TheeadX. Amazon purchased FreeRTOS. Intel, Nordic and others are dumping time into Zepher. Those are three RTOSes specifically being designed to run IoT endpoints. I’m working with FreeRTOS and AWS IoT right now, and can tell you Amazon is taking it pretty seriously. I think 90% of IoT are devices that don’t need to be connected - no doubt. But mine does and sometimes it’s there are pretty awesome use cases for it. If Rust wants to make it to C-replacement, they should be bringing over backwards to get away from DoItAllYourself IDEs and into commercial products like Keil, IAR, Segger, Attolic, etc. I promise when E+++ or Swifterz or C% or whatever crazy new hotness shows up, Rust will be the hardest hit language to lose its enthusiasts.
- steveklabnik 8y ago
  I don't know a bunch about it, but Azure IoT Edge (by Microsoft, as you'd expect) has a significant amount of Rust. I'm not sure if it's something that's directly comparable, but is at least somewhat similar.

cornstalks 8y ago

Several of these items are very relevant for the embedded world (custom registries, custom allocators, unsafe code guidelines, etc.). They just didn’t use the word “embed” in this short post.

burfog 8y ago
Do you know how difficult it is to write a position-independent blob that runs all by itself? Consider something like a boot loader or kernel, starting from a random location in memory. Can it run without needing assembly language? For example, C can often do this. You ask the linker to put a particular function first and to make everything position-independent. There can be some problems with the GNU toolchain stubbornly insisting on making a GOT, but the language is otherwise fully capable.
- thenewwazoo 8y ago
  It's very easy, in fact. Because you don't use the stdlib, it requires handling some language items (the equivalent of having to write your own _start routine, for example). You set up vector tables just like normal, and you decorate things to tell the linker where to put them. The canonical example is https://github.com/rust-embedded/cortex-m-rt https://github.com/rust-embedded/cortex-m-rt if you want to get into the guts of how it works. For a more user-focused overview, check out https://github.com/rust-embedded/cortex-m-quickstart https://github.com/rust-embedded/cortex-m-quickstart, which is a good starting point from which to drill down.

zokier 8y ago

> Nope, well... Maybe next year! I've been eyeing Rust for embedded but until there are major players shipping IDEs that natively support it It is not obvious to me what more can the Rust team do here; it would seem like the ball is in the vendors court (or whoever counts as "major player"). Plenty of the groundwork has been already accomplished, and the embed-wg continues on their good work but they can't just conjure vendor support out of thin air

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
I’m not saying hookers and blow... but I am saying the Rust group needs to be actively courting professional/commercial IDEs, and more so developing in such a way that an IDE could bring in the Rust compiler. Maybe it’s too early for that. Maybe it’s just the right time.
- TheCoelacanth 8y ago
  > developing in such a way that an IDE could bring in the Rust compiler They are doing exactly that if you look at the "Compiler" section of the roadmap[1]. > One project worth calling out in more detail is the RLS 2.0 effort. The existing RLS, while functional, was never deeply integrated into rustc itself. Over the past two years, we have rewritten the back end of rustc to use an incremental and demand-driven infrastructure. To get the IDE experience we truly want, we need to see that work through for the front end of the compiler as well. However, this part of rustc is one of its oldest, and there are significant design questions involved in how best to do that. > This is where the RLS 2.0 effort comes in. The plan is to build a prototype of the new front-end, thus enabling a truly first-class IDE experience. Wherever possible, we aim to share code between this front-end and rustc by extracting libraries, such as Chalk (for traits), Polonius (for the borrow checker), and a new library focusing on name resolution. Eventually, we will merge this new front-end with the remaining bits of back-end from rustc. [1] https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/2657-roadmap-2019.md https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/2657-road...
dcbadacd 8y ago
Getting something like Arduino IDE is for C(++) for microcontrollers out there would be a great step forwards growing the community of Rust programmers.

lsllc 8y ago

Having done a lot of embedded work in both C and assembler, I'm really excited by the prospect of a type-safe, memory safe language with zero-cost abstractions that can compile down to [more or less] the same machine code that C would produce. For those interested, check out Jorge Aparicio's (japaric) RTFM2 series: http://blog.japaric.io/rtfm-v2/ http://blog.japaric.io/rtfm-v2/ (in particular the sections titled "Preemption" and "Critical sections and Threshold")

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
Me too. But until I see Segger/Rowley or any of the second tier IDEs below Keil and IAR pushing first party support, I can’t even consider it. It’s a big leap from hobbiest to commercial with embedded. If I was part of the Rust group I’d be directly real resources into real embedded projects. You check Cargo for embedded now and might find a couple unsupported header files for different micros. It’s going to be a long time at this pace.

dcbadacd 8y ago

Also phones and other consumer electronics not strictly IoT, they too could benefit from more secure bootloaders, drivers and OS in general for example.