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I really wish people would stop coming up with ideas on how to throw things into the environment and "make it good". Reuse, not decompose, because it's still s

I really wish people would stop coming up with ideas on how to throw things into the environment and "make it good". Reuse, not decompose, because it's still shit you're dumping into the environment. Do you really want unlimited paper bags in the ocean, dissolved so they are not visible and therefore not creating outrage but still fucking the environment?

luigibosco 8y ago
Totally Agree, it's a pretty sad state when we're looking for magic tech solutions that can be heavily mitigated by simple behavior changes like bringing water, bringing bags and coffee mugs. When i visited Germany you bought a bag if you didn't have one and it seemed everyone had them. In the US grocery chains knock a nickel off your total for all the bags you don't use. I don't think saving 20-40 cents is a huge motivator for people. If all grocery chains charged $1 per bag used, behavior may change. Ideally we should try to motivate people into proper behavior and make it part of the cultural expectation. It's important to remember the order of operations are listed in order of importance. 1. Reduce 2. Reuse 3. Recycle Sometimes i forget mine too, we're human but i reuse those when i can and stick them in my car, backpack etc.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  >When i visited Germany you bought a bag if you didn't have one and it seemed everyone had them. Re-usable carrier bags are worse for the environment under any realistic scenario. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/291023/scho0711buan-e-e.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
  - detaro 8y ago
    TIL the cloth bag I've been using for the past decade or so is "unrealistic". Still, interesting data.
strainer 8y ago
Bio-degradability can not be under-rated. The big problem with plastic is that it degrades extremely slowly, practically speaking it is not bio-degradable. You clearly care about the environment, so do understand that plain paper is as biodegradable as tree leaves. Little bugs of all sizes happily eat it like leaves. It will never accumulate in the oceans. There are problems with how it can be produced, but it can be one of the most ecologically advantageous and sustainable materials possible.
dahdum 8y ago
Why would any paper bag need to be dumped in the ocean? Are U.S. plastic bags and single use takeout containers ending up in the ocean in significant quantities? If so, what municipality is dumping them in and why aren't we stopping them? We have plenty of space (absent NIMBY zoning issues) and the capability to build ever safer landfills.
jdietrich 8y ago
The average American dumps 16.5 tonnes of CO2 into the environment every year. Sixteen and a half tonnes. That's the same mass as seven Ford F150s. Three adult elephants. 265 adult humans. I don't care about paper bags in the ocean. I don't care about plastic bags in the ocean. Neither has the capacity to seriously affect the functioning of marine ecosystems on any reasonable timescale. If we don't seriously reduce our carbon emissions now, most marine ecosystems will collapse due to acidification and deoxygenation. Plastic is a useful material that is frequently the least energy-intensive (and by extension carbon-intensive) option, but that's largely besides the point. It simply doesn't matter. If you think it does matter, you have grossly under-estimated the effects of climate change. Our house is on fire and we're too busy arguing about the mess on the lawn to put it out.

luigibosco 8y ago

Totally Agree, it's a pretty sad state when we're looking for magic tech solutions that can be heavily mitigated by simple behavior changes like bringing water, bringing bags and coffee mugs. When i visited Germany you bought a bag if you didn't have one and it seemed everyone had them. In the US grocery chains knock a nickel off your total for all the bags you don't use. I don't think saving 20-40 cents is a huge motivator for people. If all grocery chains charged $1 per bag used, behavior may change. Ideally we should try to motivate people into proper behavior and make it part of the cultural expectation. It's important to remember the order of operations are listed in order of importance. 1. Reduce 2. Reuse 3. Recycle Sometimes i forget mine too, we're human but i reuse those when i can and stick them in my car, backpack etc.

jdietrich 8y ago
>When i visited Germany you bought a bag if you didn't have one and it seemed everyone had them. Re-usable carrier bags are worse for the environment under any realistic scenario. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/291023/scho0711buan-e-e.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
- detaro 8y ago
  TIL the cloth bag I've been using for the past decade or so is "unrealistic". Still, interesting data.

strainer 8y ago

Bio-degradability can not be under-rated. The big problem with plastic is that it degrades extremely slowly, practically speaking it is not bio-degradable. You clearly care about the environment, so do understand that plain paper is as biodegradable as tree leaves. Little bugs of all sizes happily eat it like leaves. It will never accumulate in the oceans. There are problems with how it can be produced, but it can be one of the most ecologically advantageous and sustainable materials possible.

dahdum 8y ago

Why would any paper bag need to be dumped in the ocean? Are U.S. plastic bags and single use takeout containers ending up in the ocean in significant quantities? If so, what municipality is dumping them in and why aren't we stopping them? We have plenty of space (absent NIMBY zoning issues) and the capability to build ever safer landfills.

jdietrich 8y ago

The average American dumps 16.5 tonnes of CO2 into the environment every year. Sixteen and a half tonnes. That's the same mass as seven Ford F150s. Three adult elephants. 265 adult humans. I don't care about paper bags in the ocean. I don't care about plastic bags in the ocean. Neither has the capacity to seriously affect the functioning of marine ecosystems on any reasonable timescale. If we don't seriously reduce our carbon emissions now, most marine ecosystems will collapse due to acidification and deoxygenation. Plastic is a useful material that is frequently the least energy-intensive (and by extension carbon-intensive) option, but that's largely besides the point. It simply doesn't matter. If you think it does matter, you have grossly under-estimated the effects of climate change. Our house is on fire and we're too busy arguing about the mess on the lawn to put it out.