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"Recycling is NOT the answer. The answer is to stop making the endless flow of single use plastic." And the manufacturers/retailers need to stop claiming that

"Recycling is NOT the answer. The answer is to stop making the endless flow of single use plastic." And the manufacturers/retailers need to stop claiming that they are only responding to "market demand" - in numerous decades of buying stuff, no-one has ever asked me what my packaging preferences are. There'll come a time when we can't recycle our way out of our own mess - what will be Big Pollutions smug solution be then?

bunderbunder 8y ago
Well, the market demand is driven more by what sells than by what people say if you ask them. And there's a reason for that: When you ask people how they'll behave, they'll give you an answer that reflects their aspirations as much as it does their actual behavior. Possible scenario: People will tell you they prefer low-waste packaging when you ask them in a survey. But when they're at a store trying to pick out an item, they still end up perceiving the item in the small paper box as being lower quality than the one in the giant clear plastic clamshell whose contents are clearly visible. So, regardless of what they said they prefer, in reality they might still tend to go for the high-waste packaging.
- frankbreetz 8y ago
  This is true, this is why the government must be the answer here. They can tax things to help with the cost of properly disposing of single-use plastic or they can outright ban them. This would make the market more realistic because the cost would include disposal of the items. People, in general, are bad at long term thinking, and they aren't going to pour hours of research into what type of packaging they are going to use. People also think that their singular actions are not going to have that much effect on the bigger picture. While this may be true, everyone cannot think this way.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    >They can tax things to help with the cost of properly disposing of single-use plastic or they can outright ban them. This would make the market more realistic because the cost would include disposal of the items. That cost is, depending on the market, about $80/tonne. Pricing in the cost of disposal would add about 0.04 cents to the cost of a plastic bag and 0.24 cents to the price of a large bottle of soda. Plastic is not a problem. It has never been a problem and it never will be a problem. Eliminating plastic packaging is at best a complete waste of time and at worst totally counter-productive. Climate change is a catastrophe; we have already passed the point of no return, and can now only choose how severe that catastrophe will be. http://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/studies/pdf/eucostwaste.pdf http://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/studies/pdf/eucostwast... https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/2e935b70-a32c-48ca-a0ee-2aa1a19286f5/files/landfill-cost.pdf https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/2e935b...
    - frankbreetz 8y ago
      Then one must ask why are we not responsibly getting rid of our plastic? Why is there plastic in every corner of the planet[0]? Why is there trash covered islands that humans don't live on and should be pristine[1]? Maybe banning plastics is not the answer and responsible disposal is the correct answer, but there is currently a very large plastics problem that must be addressed. [0]https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-47947235 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-47947235 [1]https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmack/2017/05/15/henderson-island-pacific-garbage-patch-plastic-trash/#16136cd95026 https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmack/2017/05/15/henderson-i...
- RobertoG 8y ago
  ".. they still end up perceiving the item in the small paper box as being lower quality than the one in the giant clear plastic .." You are right, but I suppose you mean "we", like in "we the people".
- FerretFred 8y ago
  I'm old enough to remember when breakfast cereal came in cardboard outer boxes with the product in a waxed paper bag inside, so the product was still visible. I don't believe that was recyclable (and back then we didn't do that anyway) but nowadays it could probably be burnt as fuel. The worst packaging I ever saw was a chicken curry and rice meal in 2 compartments, each covered in non-recyclable clear film. In addition, the rice container was non-recyclable while the chicken container was (!) We now hear statements that black plastic containers are not always recyclable, so maybe I should have just thrown the whole lot in the garbage anyway...
  - justin66 8y ago
    With the recent improvements in China's waste management, and the concomitant crackdown on "recycling" imports, my local recycling services here in the midwest have advised people not to recycle such black plastic, regardless of the recycling number on the plastic. In a way it's a shame, in a way it's an annoyance, but realistically it seems possible only a fraction of that black plastic was ever truly being recycled anyway.
jhawk28 8y ago
They ask you every time you purchase something. If you don't like the plastic. Put your money where your interests are. Buy the glass bottle, ask for the paper bag. If you can't get it in that form, these things don't need to be purchased. "Market demand" is exactly how they are asking what preferences are.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  Giving up altogether on a product you need just because it's packaged in a way you don't agree with is not a workable solution. Choosing between otherwise similar products is viable, though.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  Is glass a viable alternative? It costs a lot more energy to produce than single-use plastic. It can be reused, but that requires an infrastructure of collection and cleaning. It can (and is) be (being) infinitely recycled, but that costs a lot of energy as well.
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    I like glass, but seems like the market has spoken on that one. We used to recycle (reuse, really) glass soda bottles back in the 70s and 80s. The bottles get ugly after a while, so people prefer fresh new ones. Today we still struggle to get above 50% recycling on glass, though it has been increasing over time. Might be better to switch to aluminum. The recycling system appears more advanced.
    - foobiekr 8y ago
      BPA coatings make aluminum problematic.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        https://www.packagingdigest.com/food-packaging/most-food-cans-no-longer-use-bpa-in-their-linings-2018-02-20 https://www.packagingdigest.com/food-packaging/most-food-can... (Most food cans no longer use BPA in their linings) > At least 90% of today’s food cans have replaced linings that previously contained the controversial chemical bisphenol-A (BPA), according to the Can Manufacturers Institute. This is in reaction to market demands for more options in food safety. > Food can linings now are typically made from acrylic and polyester. And all new materials are extensively tested and are cleared by regulatory agencies before being sold in the market. Linings are necessary to prevent the can from corroding, provide a barrier to bacteria and maintain food quality.
mrob 8y ago
I eat a lot of frozen vegetables. This is less wasteful than fresh, because I can buy them in bulk and store them for several months. With fresh vegetables I'd have to make two or three journeys a week. Additionally, a lot of fresh vegetables rot in the supply chain. I demand my frozen vegetables are packaged in plastic bags. This is the standard packaging for good reason. There is no other material that combines the flexibility, lightness, and waterproofness of plastic. Plastic bags are not easily recyclable, but very little material is needed to make one. I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff to send a few grams of plastic to landfill (where the carbon stays out of the atmosphere), or burn it for energy recovery, to avoid spending far more fossil fuel on transport and wasted production. Banning plastic packaging without thinking about the consequences will do more harm than good.
- onion2k 8y ago
  Banning plastic would mean you'd need to buy more fresh vegetables, which would reduce the amount that's wasted now. It would also encourage you to plan your trips more efficiently (eg shop somewhere closer to home).
  - mrob 8y ago
    >Banning plastic would mean you'd need to buy more fresh vegetables, which would reduce the amount that's wasted now. It would not. If I (and frozen vegetable buyers in general) switch to buying fresh vegetables, the market will increase production of fresh vegetables to compensate. >shop somewhere closer to home I already shop as close to home as possible.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - cbhl 8y ago
    I feel like banning the sale of fresh vegetables would do a whole lot more to reduce waste. Every grocery store talks about "shrink" in their Form 10K. They buy extra fruits, vegetables, and meat so that the consumer has a full shelf or display to select from. XX% of that goes unsold, gets processed into prepared food (chopped fruits/vegetables, etc.), and then what's unsold from that gets tossed or donated. Farmer's Markets have shrink too -- and the lack of climate control means that spoilage happens on the order of days, rather than weeks.

bunderbunder 8y ago

Well, the market demand is driven more by what sells than by what people say if you ask them. And there's a reason for that: When you ask people how they'll behave, they'll give you an answer that reflects their aspirations as much as it does their actual behavior. Possible scenario: People will tell you they prefer low-waste packaging when you ask them in a survey. But when they're at a store trying to pick out an item, they still end up perceiving the item in the small paper box as being lower quality than the one in the giant clear plastic clamshell whose contents are clearly visible. So, regardless of what they said they prefer, in reality they might still tend to go for the high-waste packaging.

frankbreetz 8y ago
This is true, this is why the government must be the answer here. They can tax things to help with the cost of properly disposing of single-use plastic or they can outright ban them. This would make the market more realistic because the cost would include disposal of the items. People, in general, are bad at long term thinking, and they aren't going to pour hours of research into what type of packaging they are going to use. People also think that their singular actions are not going to have that much effect on the bigger picture. While this may be true, everyone cannot think this way.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  >They can tax things to help with the cost of properly disposing of single-use plastic or they can outright ban them. This would make the market more realistic because the cost would include disposal of the items. That cost is, depending on the market, about $80/tonne. Pricing in the cost of disposal would add about 0.04 cents to the cost of a plastic bag and 0.24 cents to the price of a large bottle of soda. Plastic is not a problem. It has never been a problem and it never will be a problem. Eliminating plastic packaging is at best a complete waste of time and at worst totally counter-productive. Climate change is a catastrophe; we have already passed the point of no return, and can now only choose how severe that catastrophe will be. http://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/studies/pdf/eucostwaste.pdf http://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/studies/pdf/eucostwast... https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/2e935b70-a32c-48ca-a0ee-2aa1a19286f5/files/landfill-cost.pdf https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/2e935b...
  - frankbreetz 8y ago
    Then one must ask why are we not responsibly getting rid of our plastic? Why is there plastic in every corner of the planet[0]? Why is there trash covered islands that humans don't live on and should be pristine[1]? Maybe banning plastics is not the answer and responsible disposal is the correct answer, but there is currently a very large plastics problem that must be addressed. [0]https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-47947235 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-47947235 [1]https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmack/2017/05/15/henderson-island-pacific-garbage-patch-plastic-trash/#16136cd95026 https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmack/2017/05/15/henderson-i...
RobertoG 8y ago
".. they still end up perceiving the item in the small paper box as being lower quality than the one in the giant clear plastic .." You are right, but I suppose you mean "we", like in "we the people".
FerretFred 8y ago
I'm old enough to remember when breakfast cereal came in cardboard outer boxes with the product in a waxed paper bag inside, so the product was still visible. I don't believe that was recyclable (and back then we didn't do that anyway) but nowadays it could probably be burnt as fuel. The worst packaging I ever saw was a chicken curry and rice meal in 2 compartments, each covered in non-recyclable clear film. In addition, the rice container was non-recyclable while the chicken container was (!) We now hear statements that black plastic containers are not always recyclable, so maybe I should have just thrown the whole lot in the garbage anyway...
- justin66 8y ago
  With the recent improvements in China's waste management, and the concomitant crackdown on "recycling" imports, my local recycling services here in the midwest have advised people not to recycle such black plastic, regardless of the recycling number on the plastic. In a way it's a shame, in a way it's an annoyance, but realistically it seems possible only a fraction of that black plastic was ever truly being recycled anyway.

jhawk28 8y ago

They ask you every time you purchase something. If you don't like the plastic. Put your money where your interests are. Buy the glass bottle, ask for the paper bag. If you can't get it in that form, these things don't need to be purchased. "Market demand" is exactly how they are asking what preferences are.

rootusrootus 8y ago
Giving up altogether on a product you need just because it's packaged in a way you don't agree with is not a workable solution. Choosing between otherwise similar products is viable, though.
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
Is glass a viable alternative? It costs a lot more energy to produce than single-use plastic. It can be reused, but that requires an infrastructure of collection and cleaning. It can (and is) be (being) infinitely recycled, but that costs a lot of energy as well.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  I like glass, but seems like the market has spoken on that one. We used to recycle (reuse, really) glass soda bottles back in the 70s and 80s. The bottles get ugly after a while, so people prefer fresh new ones. Today we still struggle to get above 50% recycling on glass, though it has been increasing over time. Might be better to switch to aluminum. The recycling system appears more advanced.
  - foobiekr 8y ago
    BPA coatings make aluminum problematic.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      https://www.packagingdigest.com/food-packaging/most-food-cans-no-longer-use-bpa-in-their-linings-2018-02-20 https://www.packagingdigest.com/food-packaging/most-food-can... (Most food cans no longer use BPA in their linings) > At least 90% of today’s food cans have replaced linings that previously contained the controversial chemical bisphenol-A (BPA), according to the Can Manufacturers Institute. This is in reaction to market demands for more options in food safety. > Food can linings now are typically made from acrylic and polyester. And all new materials are extensively tested and are cleared by regulatory agencies before being sold in the market. Linings are necessary to prevent the can from corroding, provide a barrier to bacteria and maintain food quality.

mrob 8y ago

I eat a lot of frozen vegetables. This is less wasteful than fresh, because I can buy them in bulk and store them for several months. With fresh vegetables I'd have to make two or three journeys a week. Additionally, a lot of fresh vegetables rot in the supply chain. I demand my frozen vegetables are packaged in plastic bags. This is the standard packaging for good reason. There is no other material that combines the flexibility, lightness, and waterproofness of plastic. Plastic bags are not easily recyclable, but very little material is needed to make one. I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff to send a few grams of plastic to landfill (where the carbon stays out of the atmosphere), or burn it for energy recovery, to avoid spending far more fossil fuel on transport and wasted production. Banning plastic packaging without thinking about the consequences will do more harm than good.

onion2k 8y ago
Banning plastic would mean you'd need to buy more fresh vegetables, which would reduce the amount that's wasted now. It would also encourage you to plan your trips more efficiently (eg shop somewhere closer to home).
- mrob 8y ago
  >Banning plastic would mean you'd need to buy more fresh vegetables, which would reduce the amount that's wasted now. It would not. If I (and frozen vegetable buyers in general) switch to buying fresh vegetables, the market will increase production of fresh vegetables to compensate. >shop somewhere closer to home I already shop as close to home as possible.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- cbhl 8y ago
  I feel like banning the sale of fresh vegetables would do a whole lot more to reduce waste. Every grocery store talks about "shrink" in their Form 10K. They buy extra fruits, vegetables, and meat so that the consumer has a full shelf or display to select from. XX% of that goes unsold, gets processed into prepared food (chopped fruits/vegetables, etc.), and then what's unsold from that gets tossed or donated. Farmer's Markets have shrink too -- and the lack of climate control means that spoilage happens on the order of days, rather than weeks.