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> I like the idea of being able to use a proper programming language (opinions may differ) for my startup scripts I don't know. I rather like the NixOS way, wh

> I like the idea of being able to use a proper programming language (opinions may differ) for my startup scripts I don't know. I rather like the NixOS way, where a proper programming language generates the startup scripts (or, in that case, systemd units), but then those scripts are dumb and obvious. Many things are better when they're dumb and obvious.

armitron 8y ago
The problem with Nix is that it's not a proper programming language. I'll take Scheme over yet another obscure language that manages to irritate me in many ways.
- res0nat0r 8y ago
  I setup and used a headless nixos box for about a year or so, it was fun to play around with but I did get tired after a while of the nix programming language. It was just too weird to figure out and google around to try and find what I needed to do sometimes. Trying to get virtualenvs of python packages, or using rbenv / bundler type installs for ruby was also just too much of a pain in the butt. https://nixos.org/nixpkgs/manual/#sec-language-ruby https://nixos.org/nixpkgs/manual/#sec-language-ruby Trying to figure my way around installing ruby/python libraries just was too hard most of the time without a good amount of work that it wasn't worth it in the long run. Guix has been on my radar to try and install and play with in-depth soon. If their installer will work with a VM without a days worth of research to work around any quirks I'm all in for checking it out.
  - lfam 8y ago
    Installing Guix in a VM has its own section of the manual: https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/en/html_node/Installing-GuixSD-in-a-VM.html https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/en/html_node/Instal...
    - res0nat0r 8y ago
      I think I remember trying that a while back and couldn't quite get it working, I'll need to try again soon.
- pknopf 8y ago
  If you want immutability with a traditional package manager, try Darch: https://godarch.com https://godarch.com
bjoli 8y ago
I agree, but having an option instead of having to do ExecStop=path-to-shell-script-that-does-some-stupid-housekeeping is pretty neat. Most shepherd service definitions are simple and stupid, but as always it is a matter of taste.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  But the shell scripts are more or less portable across systems, whereas this way you were asking developers to re-implement the same cleanup logic in another language.
- stephenr 8y ago
  > but having an option instead of having to do ExecStop=path-to-shell-script-that-does-some-stupid-housekeeping is pretty neat. IMO this is usually the result of eg a Debian package that also ships sysvinit startup scripts, and thus they share some logic. If it’s not that case I wonder why the cleanup can’t just be handled in the unit directly.
  - Skunkleton 8y ago
    Perhaps the service being managed doesn't clean up after itself properly? It is a fairly common pattern for a program to ship without startup scripts, and then have startup scripts added by package maintainers.
    - stephenr 8y ago
      Right that’s certainly a thing but what I meant is, why not just put the cleanup instructions in the unit file.
      - Skunkleton 8y ago
        Because "cleanup" can be non-trivial. Maintaining scripts inside unit files is a pain in the ass.

armitron 8y ago

The problem with Nix is that it's not a proper programming language. I'll take Scheme over yet another obscure language that manages to irritate me in many ways.

res0nat0r 8y ago
I setup and used a headless nixos box for about a year or so, it was fun to play around with but I did get tired after a while of the nix programming language. It was just too weird to figure out and google around to try and find what I needed to do sometimes. Trying to get virtualenvs of python packages, or using rbenv / bundler type installs for ruby was also just too much of a pain in the butt. https://nixos.org/nixpkgs/manual/#sec-language-ruby https://nixos.org/nixpkgs/manual/#sec-language-ruby Trying to figure my way around installing ruby/python libraries just was too hard most of the time without a good amount of work that it wasn't worth it in the long run. Guix has been on my radar to try and install and play with in-depth soon. If their installer will work with a VM without a days worth of research to work around any quirks I'm all in for checking it out.
- lfam 8y ago
  Installing Guix in a VM has its own section of the manual: https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/en/html_node/Installing-GuixSD-in-a-VM.html https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/en/html_node/Instal...
  - res0nat0r 8y ago
    I think I remember trying that a while back and couldn't quite get it working, I'll need to try again soon.
pknopf 8y ago
If you want immutability with a traditional package manager, try Darch: https://godarch.com https://godarch.com

bjoli 8y ago

I agree, but having an option instead of having to do ExecStop=path-to-shell-script-that-does-some-stupid-housekeeping is pretty neat. Most shepherd service definitions are simple and stupid, but as always it is a matter of taste.

nerdponx 8y ago
But the shell scripts are more or less portable across systems, whereas this way you were asking developers to re-implement the same cleanup logic in another language.
stephenr 8y ago
> but having an option instead of having to do ExecStop=path-to-shell-script-that-does-some-stupid-housekeeping is pretty neat. IMO this is usually the result of eg a Debian package that also ships sysvinit startup scripts, and thus they share some logic. If it’s not that case I wonder why the cleanup can’t just be handled in the unit directly.
- Skunkleton 8y ago
  Perhaps the service being managed doesn't clean up after itself properly? It is a fairly common pattern for a program to ship without startup scripts, and then have startup scripts added by package maintainers.
  - stephenr 8y ago
    Right that’s certainly a thing but what I meant is, why not just put the cleanup instructions in the unit file.
    - Skunkleton 8y ago
      Because "cleanup" can be non-trivial. Maintaining scripts inside unit files is a pain in the ass.