3 ms·

Ars did a good job of writing this article to express the opinions of the subjects of the case but still take an opportunity to state the facts: that there is b

Ars did a good job of writing this article to express the opinions of the subjects of the case but still take an opportunity to state the facts: that there is basically no evidence women are naturally unsuited to programming and that in other places in the world it doesn't always hold.

fefe23 8y ago
I don't think that was the claim of the original engineer though. More that women like other things more?
- lsiebert 8y ago
  The Microsoft employee wasn't an engineer, and said: "Many women simply aren’t cut out for the corporate rat race, so to speak, and that’s not because of ‘the patriarchy,’ it’s because men and women aren’t identical, and women are much more inclined to gain fulfillment elsewhere." and: "men and women think very differently from each other, and the specific types of thought process and problem solving required for engineering of all kinds (software or otherwise) are simply less prevalent among women." Source: https://qz.com/1598345/microsoft-staff-are-openly-questioning-the-value-of-diversity/ https://qz.com/1598345/microsoft-staff-are-openly-questionin...
- KirinDave 8y ago
  She did, in fact. Please see the other reply to your question, as they beat me to it. People always try to soften the blow with "preferences" but it's really a non-argument that doesn't stand up to even the most casual scrutiny. And then, the exact same data that refutes the "women aren't suited" argument also refutes the "maybe women are on average incapable of deriving satisfaction from this work."
- naikrovek 8y ago
  In a world without external gender bias, neither males nor females would ever be told, implicitly or explicitly, that any job is unsuitable for them. "Women like other things more" because fewer men are in those fields to tell them "this is a job for men." There is no overall gender-based bias towards or away from any intellectual interests. If a field is full of asshole men, it is not indicative of a lack of interest in that field from women. It is a lack of interest in putting up with those asshole men that will keep most women away.
  - NotAnEconomist 8y ago
    > "Women like other things more" because fewer men are in those fields to tell them "this is a job for men." There is no overall gender-based bias towards or away from any intellectual interests. Do you have evidence for this? The evidence I've seen, say, comparing Scandinavian women to Eastern European women, indicates that there are sex-correlated trends in life choices, eg about career. https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-gender-scandal-part-one-scandinavia-and-part-two-canada/ https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-ge...
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      The article itself debunks these claims with both historical and contemporary evidence, but let's step back for a moment here. Just note for a moment that Peterson's argument seems to hinge on proving there are sex-differences. I'm not sure how much I believe him (he's not very trustworthy and he mis-cites things a lot in my experience), but let's proceed as if I do not dispute this point. Fine: "There are sex differences on a variety of scales." This concession is easy, because no one really disputes this![0] What's disputed is what the impact and interpretation of these should be. If a dislike of computer programming is universal under this hypothesis, then we should not find such trivial counter-examples as the article has. Software can be about people. Design can be about things. The outrageous claim is that the minds women possess are unsuited to the task at hand, not that women might be different. And this is the claim Peterson dances around continually. He'd much rather talk about what post-scarcity people in a semi-socialist nation focus on doing than ask the question, "How good is anyone at a given job?" You know what? If I wasn't living the Bay Area where expenses are so high; I wouldn't work for a tech company either. It's not a friendly place to be, and it's a place that reviles personal growth. [0]: Not even trans people suggest there are "no sex differences." If they did, then why would so many go to such difficulty to do HRT and even surgical modification? The argument is that there is more to the story of what it means to be a woman or a man, and we should recognize that.
deleted 8y ago
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shard972 8y ago
Just like there is basically no evidence men are naturally unsuited to being a mother.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  I doubt even you know exactly what you meant by this.
strken 8y ago
There is some handwavy evidence for the other side that they didn't present. Off the top of my head, there's an Australian study that found removing names from resumes lowered the number of women who made it through, and there's the "paradox" of lower income countries having a much greater proportion of female software developers. I don't think either of these is particularly strong evidence, but including and then dismissing them would have been more convincing than pretending they don't exist.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  Don't worry. 800 Jordan Peterson fans will emerge from the woodwork using his same tactic of arguing one thing and saying it presents an causality argument for another thing. I am sure they'll get the message across.

fefe23 8y ago

I don't think that was the claim of the original engineer though. More that women like other things more?

lsiebert 8y ago
The Microsoft employee wasn't an engineer, and said: "Many women simply aren’t cut out for the corporate rat race, so to speak, and that’s not because of ‘the patriarchy,’ it’s because men and women aren’t identical, and women are much more inclined to gain fulfillment elsewhere." and: "men and women think very differently from each other, and the specific types of thought process and problem solving required for engineering of all kinds (software or otherwise) are simply less prevalent among women." Source: https://qz.com/1598345/microsoft-staff-are-openly-questioning-the-value-of-diversity/ https://qz.com/1598345/microsoft-staff-are-openly-questionin...
KirinDave 8y ago
She did, in fact. Please see the other reply to your question, as they beat me to it. People always try to soften the blow with "preferences" but it's really a non-argument that doesn't stand up to even the most casual scrutiny. And then, the exact same data that refutes the "women aren't suited" argument also refutes the "maybe women are on average incapable of deriving satisfaction from this work."
naikrovek 8y ago
In a world without external gender bias, neither males nor females would ever be told, implicitly or explicitly, that any job is unsuitable for them. "Women like other things more" because fewer men are in those fields to tell them "this is a job for men." There is no overall gender-based bias towards or away from any intellectual interests. If a field is full of asshole men, it is not indicative of a lack of interest in that field from women. It is a lack of interest in putting up with those asshole men that will keep most women away.
- NotAnEconomist 8y ago
  > "Women like other things more" because fewer men are in those fields to tell them "this is a job for men." There is no overall gender-based bias towards or away from any intellectual interests. Do you have evidence for this? The evidence I've seen, say, comparing Scandinavian women to Eastern European women, indicates that there are sex-correlated trends in life choices, eg about career. https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-gender-scandal-part-one-scandinavia-and-part-two-canada/ https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-ge...
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    The article itself debunks these claims with both historical and contemporary evidence, but let's step back for a moment here. Just note for a moment that Peterson's argument seems to hinge on proving there are sex-differences. I'm not sure how much I believe him (he's not very trustworthy and he mis-cites things a lot in my experience), but let's proceed as if I do not dispute this point. Fine: "There are sex differences on a variety of scales." This concession is easy, because no one really disputes this![0] What's disputed is what the impact and interpretation of these should be. If a dislike of computer programming is universal under this hypothesis, then we should not find such trivial counter-examples as the article has. Software can be about people. Design can be about things. The outrageous claim is that the minds women possess are unsuited to the task at hand, not that women might be different. And this is the claim Peterson dances around continually. He'd much rather talk about what post-scarcity people in a semi-socialist nation focus on doing than ask the question, "How good is anyone at a given job?" You know what? If I wasn't living the Bay Area where expenses are so high; I wouldn't work for a tech company either. It's not a friendly place to be, and it's a place that reviles personal growth. [0]: Not even trans people suggest there are "no sex differences." If they did, then why would so many go to such difficulty to do HRT and even surgical modification? The argument is that there is more to the story of what it means to be a woman or a man, and we should recognize that.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

shard972 8y ago

Just like there is basically no evidence men are naturally unsuited to being a mother.

KirinDave 8y ago
I doubt even you know exactly what you meant by this.

strken 8y ago

There is some handwavy evidence for the other side that they didn't present. Off the top of my head, there's an Australian study that found removing names from resumes lowered the number of women who made it through, and there's the "paradox" of lower income countries having a much greater proportion of female software developers. I don't think either of these is particularly strong evidence, but including and then dismissing them would have been more convincing than pretending they don't exist.

KirinDave 8y ago
Don't worry. 800 Jordan Peterson fans will emerge from the woodwork using his same tactic of arguing one thing and saying it presents an causality argument for another thing. I am sure they'll get the message across.