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While there are obviously still cases where C++ makes sense to use today, those case are overwhelmingly based on the age and maturity of the C++ ecosystem. Now

by magila 7y ago

While there are obviously still cases where C++ makes sense to use today, those case are overwhelmingly based on the age and maturity of the C++ ecosystem. Now that Rust has proven that a language can provide memory safety without compromising (much) on performance, it is clear that the scope of C++'s supremacy is in permanent decline. As Rust (or another language with similar safety/performance properties) matures and its ecosystem grows, C++ will increasingly become a language of tiny niches and legacy codebases. In other words: C++ is the new Fortran.

ncmncm 7y ago
If C++ is the new Fortran, Rust might very well be the new Ada. Many of the same relative merits were claimed for Ada as for Rust, and it had the backing of the biggest and best-funded organization in the world, but it faded from view because it did not keep up. Rust could easily go the same way.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Given the market size for Fortran and Ada, that doesn't bound well for Rust.
ajross 7y ago
> In other words: C++ is the new Fortran. Which makes Rust the new... APL? I think the analogy is pretty apt as far as it goes. Fortran by the 70's was a crufty language with a bunch of legacy mistakes that remained very popular and very useful and would continue to see active use for decades to come. And everyone knew that. And everyone had their own idea about the great new language that was "clearly" going to replace Fortran. And pretty much everyone was wrong. The language that did (C) was one no one saw coming and frankly one that didn't even try to fix a lot of the stuff that everyone was sure was broken. For myself, I despair that Rust has already jumped the proverbial shark. It's complexity is just too severe, the only people who really love Rust are the people writing Rust libraries and toolchains, and not the workaday hackers who are needed to turn it into a truly successful platform.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  It’s definitely easier to reason about than C++ because it errs on the side of safety and explicitness. You can use things you don’t understand without fear which straddles the boundary in a good way IMO. To your point that doesn’t make it simple. As a work-a-day hacker it’s completely become my go to language when I’m writing tools, libraries or just want to knock out a simple algorithm to prove myself right or wrong.
  - ajross 7y ago
    > It’s definitely easier to reason about than C++ See... I don't think that's true, and argue the huge body of C++ code and talent in the ecosystem is an existence proof to the contrary. I mean, sure, C++ has its crazy edge cases and its odd notions. But you don't need to understand the vagaries of undefined behavior, or the RVO, or move semantics to write and deploy perfectly sensible code. Literally hundreds of thousands of people are doing this every day. Now, that may not be a convincing argument about the value of that code. But it's absolutely an argument about the utility of the language in aggregate. I'll be frank: probably 40% of professional C++ programmers aren't going to be able to pick up Rust and be productive in it, at all. And at the end of the day a language for The Elite isn't really going to mean much. We've had plenty of those. Rust is the new APL, like I said.
    - estebank 7y ago
      I'm curious, what has given you the impression that Rust is a language "for the elite"? It certainly has some rough edges around learnability, but I don't think anyone is actively trying to discourage people from picking it up. Rust is certainly hard for experienced programmers because some common patterns in other languages are not allowed by Rust's rules, but that's no different than trying to apply OOP in a functional language.
    - Inityx 7y ago
      > the huge body of C++ code and talent in the ecosystem is an existence proof to the contrary Looks to me more like proof that C++ has been around a long time

by magila 7y ago

ncmncm 7y ago

If C++ is the new Fortran, Rust might very well be the new Ada. Many of the same relative merits were claimed for Ada as for Rust, and it had the backing of the biggest and best-funded organization in the world, but it faded from view because it did not keep up. Rust could easily go the same way.

pjmlp 7y ago
Given the market size for Fortran and Ada, that doesn't bound well for Rust.

ajross 7y ago

> In other words: C++ is the new Fortran. Which makes Rust the new... APL? I think the analogy is pretty apt as far as it goes. Fortran by the 70's was a crufty language with a bunch of legacy mistakes that remained very popular and very useful and would continue to see active use for decades to come. And everyone knew that. And everyone had their own idea about the great new language that was "clearly" going to replace Fortran. And pretty much everyone was wrong. The language that did (C) was one no one saw coming and frankly one that didn't even try to fix a lot of the stuff that everyone was sure was broken. For myself, I despair that Rust has already jumped the proverbial shark. It's complexity is just too severe, the only people who really love Rust are the people writing Rust libraries and toolchains, and not the workaday hackers who are needed to turn it into a truly successful platform.

arcticbull 7y ago
It’s definitely easier to reason about than C++ because it errs on the side of safety and explicitness. You can use things you don’t understand without fear which straddles the boundary in a good way IMO. To your point that doesn’t make it simple. As a work-a-day hacker it’s completely become my go to language when I’m writing tools, libraries or just want to knock out a simple algorithm to prove myself right or wrong.
- ajross 7y ago
  > It’s definitely easier to reason about than C++ See... I don't think that's true, and argue the huge body of C++ code and talent in the ecosystem is an existence proof to the contrary. I mean, sure, C++ has its crazy edge cases and its odd notions. But you don't need to understand the vagaries of undefined behavior, or the RVO, or move semantics to write and deploy perfectly sensible code. Literally hundreds of thousands of people are doing this every day. Now, that may not be a convincing argument about the value of that code. But it's absolutely an argument about the utility of the language in aggregate. I'll be frank: probably 40% of professional C++ programmers aren't going to be able to pick up Rust and be productive in it, at all. And at the end of the day a language for The Elite isn't really going to mean much. We've had plenty of those. Rust is the new APL, like I said.
  - estebank 7y ago
    I'm curious, what has given you the impression that Rust is a language "for the elite"? It certainly has some rough edges around learnability, but I don't think anyone is actively trying to discourage people from picking it up. Rust is certainly hard for experienced programmers because some common patterns in other languages are not allowed by Rust's rules, but that's no different than trying to apply OOP in a functional language.
  - Inityx 7y ago
    > the huge body of C++ code and talent in the ecosystem is an existence proof to the contrary Looks to me more like proof that C++ has been around a long time