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"When most Europeans hear the word “liberal” they think of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan." No. NO WE DO NOT. Irrespective of your views on Maggie - nobod

by goldcd 8y ago

"When most Europeans hear the word “liberal” they think of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan." No. NO WE DO NOT. Irrespective of your views on Maggie - nobody considers her a liberal..

goldcd 8y ago
I'll agree that "liberalism" is a relatively recent political label - but that's about it, especially when religion starts popping up throughout the rest of the short article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty is a good 'starting point' - but then going in a hundred different directions, with most of them denouncing their forebears (as is the way in any good political movement)
bigger_cheese 8y ago
Here in Australia our Center Right conservative party is the "Liberal party". Thatcher, Reagan etc would fit with their views, which to simplify a lot is: Pro free trade, pro privatization, anti trade union and less state welfare. My friend who is a member described them to me once as "economically liberal, socially conservative."
- cam_l 8y ago
  >Center Right It has been a while since they were centre anything. And i think in Australia at least the economically liberal / conservative split is not even close to a meaningful description. It was the left who curtailed the unions, removed trade restrictions and floated the dollar. Both sides have been involved in privatisation (because that is more an issue of insulating themselves politically). Corporatist vs socialist is one of the more fair terms i have seen thrown around. Though personally i think crony-capitalist vs crony-unionist is a more accurate description. The bigger issue is of course, the terms are used to blanket the actual issues in a political identity people are reluctant to divorce themselves from. Most voters are in general agreement when you can separate the issues from the political identity.
orf 8y ago
Holy hell, I had to double check that quote. How can the authors get something like that so absolutely wrong?
- inflatableDodo 8y ago
  Is the Murray Gell-Mann Amnesia effect - https://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2011/08/the-murray-gell-mann-amnesia-effect/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2011/08/the-murray-g...
  - dingaling 8y ago
    No, it's the exact opposite. The original poster now has little confidence in the authors and will in the future view their work with suspicion. For all the times the MGMA is trotted out I don't think there is evidence that it is actually common. It was just a theory proposed by an author with no research or evidence. He discussed it with a colleague and then printed it as 'fact'. Perhaps it's actually a self-referential hoax...?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
inflatableDodo 8y ago
In the UK, at least without further context, to describe someone as 'liberal' means to me that they have socially liberal views or are generous with their property and 'a liberal' means either socially liberal views or a member or supporter of the Liberal party. You would have to qualify the word liberal with something such as 'neo' to get me to think you meant someone like Thatcher or Reagan.

by goldcd 8y ago

"When most Europeans hear the word “liberal” they think of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan." No. NO WE DO NOT. Irrespective of your views on Maggie - nobody considers her a liberal..

goldcd 8y ago

I'll agree that "liberalism" is a relatively recent political label - but that's about it, especially when religion starts popping up throughout the rest of the short article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty is a good 'starting point' - but then going in a hundred different directions, with most of them denouncing their forebears (as is the way in any good political movement)

bigger_cheese 8y ago

Here in Australia our Center Right conservative party is the "Liberal party". Thatcher, Reagan etc would fit with their views, which to simplify a lot is: Pro free trade, pro privatization, anti trade union and less state welfare. My friend who is a member described them to me once as "economically liberal, socially conservative."

cam_l 8y ago
>Center Right It has been a while since they were centre anything. And i think in Australia at least the economically liberal / conservative split is not even close to a meaningful description. It was the left who curtailed the unions, removed trade restrictions and floated the dollar. Both sides have been involved in privatisation (because that is more an issue of insulating themselves politically). Corporatist vs socialist is one of the more fair terms i have seen thrown around. Though personally i think crony-capitalist vs crony-unionist is a more accurate description. The bigger issue is of course, the terms are used to blanket the actual issues in a political identity people are reluctant to divorce themselves from. Most voters are in general agreement when you can separate the issues from the political identity.

orf 8y ago

Holy hell, I had to double check that quote. How can the authors get something like that so absolutely wrong?

inflatableDodo 8y ago
Is the Murray Gell-Mann Amnesia effect - https://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2011/08/the-murray-gell-mann-amnesia-effect/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2011/08/the-murray-g...
- dingaling 8y ago
  No, it's the exact opposite. The original poster now has little confidence in the authors and will in the future view their work with suspicion. For all the times the MGMA is trotted out I don't think there is evidence that it is actually common. It was just a theory proposed by an author with no research or evidence. He discussed it with a colleague and then printed it as 'fact'. Perhaps it's actually a self-referential hoax...?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

inflatableDodo 8y ago

In the UK, at least without further context, to describe someone as 'liberal' means to me that they have socially liberal views or are generous with their property and 'a liberal' means either socially liberal views or a member or supporter of the Liberal party. You would have to qualify the word liberal with something such as 'neo' to get me to think you meant someone like Thatcher or Reagan.