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> Lidar is an unnecessary mistake that competitors are making This is very controversial and rest of the industry thinks exact opposite, many even claiming tha

> Lidar is an unnecessary mistake that competitors are making This is very controversial and rest of the industry thinks exact opposite, many even claiming that Tesla is being irresponsible and even delusional in trying to do autonomy without lidar. The main points I have heard in favor of lidar are that computer vision is very flaky not only in suboptimal weather but even in good weather. Cameras are simply no where close to in performance in dynamic range, rapid adaptation, focusing etc as human eye. Imagine car going under the shaded road with rapid changes between bright light and shade. The likelihood that your depth estimation will get messed up is very high. Of course, night driving becomes highly questionable as well. In additional the long range depth estimation is very flaky with stereo vision right now and a topic of research for mono-vision. If you want to retreat to level-4 only and that too with conservative speed, weather etc then may be vision+radar more doable?

fossuser 8y ago
They pair it with a forward facing radar which is inexpensive and good at depth perception. Elon predicts all competitors will eventually drop lidar. He mentions it's expensive, but also not as good in a lot of cases (and all roads/signs are designed for vision). He argues that getting vision to work is a prerequisite for getting self-driving to work and once you have it working, lidar is worthless (and unnecessary).
- gamblor956 8y ago
  Elon Musk is noted for his premature optimization. Case in point: both the Gigafactory (vastly overbuilt for the quantity of batteries actually produced) and the Alien Dreadnought (vastly overbuilt for the number of cars Tesla current produces...assuming that Tesla is ever able to get the fancy automation working). Boring Co digging a two-mile tunnel in West LA without bothering to learn how to pour concrete smoothly, or to make the "rails" the proper width, or learning about ventilation, or access points....
  - Fricken 8y ago
    It's easier to optimize a working system than it is to get an optimized system working.
    - cromwellian 8y ago
      It's not easier to optimize a working system for consumers if "optimization" == "not dying". What will happen is you will deoptimize your brand's safety and find yourself regulated.
    - StavrosK 8y ago
      So when are they going to get them working?
      - Fricken 8y ago
        Beats me. It could be a while before we see anything that can compete with conventional rideshare at scale.
    - sytelus 8y ago
      Often reverse is true. Trying to optimize system with million lines of code may require serious change in architecture and much harder because of backward compatibility and all the legacy baggage. As many people would describe it, it much harder to fix an airplane that must also continue to stay in the air.
- sytelus 8y ago
  “In my view, it’s a crutch that will drive companies to a local maximum that they will find very hard to get out of,” Musk said. He added, “Perhaps I am wrong, and I will look like a fool. But I am quite certain that I am not.” https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/7/16988628/elon-musk-lidar-self-driving-car-tesla https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/7/16988628/elon-musk-lidar-s...
- sangnoir 8y ago
  Their forward facing radar has failed to avoid crashes into big, stationary objects (at least 2 semi trailers, a fire truck, and more). The explanation I got was that radar is rather noisy, so it's handy to filter-out stationary objects (like road signs, broken down vehicles on the shoulder, and fatally, any any semi trailer crossing your lane)
tomComb 8y ago
I don't think anyone wants to use Lidar - the claim is that they need it to achieve full, safe, autonomy. If it turns out that it isn't needed than Tesla will be in a great position. But only time will tell.
somethoughts 8y ago
I think it also fundamentally depends on the business model being pursued: - If you are trying to sell the Model 3 directly to the end consumer with autonomous mode, the extra $10K for Lidar and bulk (which will greatly effect the exterior design) are definitely non-starters. - If you are going to robo-taxi route (such as Waymo and Uber), the extra one time $10K cost to add lidar for the 5 year life of the car is probably a blip on the income statement of the operator as compared to a full time human driver which probably costs $10K PER MONTH for the lifetime of the service. For the robo-taxi business model - its a bit of a no brainer - they could stick every sensor known to man on the car and still make out like a warlord by getting rid of the human driver but maintained a 100% safety record. Plus making the car stand-out with a unique Lidar inclusive shape is a great marketing differentiator. Also reduces your liability if a taxi rider ever sues since you can claim you have redundancy in the system.
bobsil1 8y ago
- Only a matter of time (evolved AGI research) before vision suffices. We know it can work because of bio evolution. - Also only a matter of time before lidar cheap enough that even Tesla will add for redundancy and edge cases.

fossuser 8y ago

They pair it with a forward facing radar which is inexpensive and good at depth perception. Elon predicts all competitors will eventually drop lidar. He mentions it's expensive, but also not as good in a lot of cases (and all roads/signs are designed for vision). He argues that getting vision to work is a prerequisite for getting self-driving to work and once you have it working, lidar is worthless (and unnecessary).

gamblor956 8y ago
Elon Musk is noted for his premature optimization. Case in point: both the Gigafactory (vastly overbuilt for the quantity of batteries actually produced) and the Alien Dreadnought (vastly overbuilt for the number of cars Tesla current produces...assuming that Tesla is ever able to get the fancy automation working). Boring Co digging a two-mile tunnel in West LA without bothering to learn how to pour concrete smoothly, or to make the "rails" the proper width, or learning about ventilation, or access points....
- Fricken 8y ago
  It's easier to optimize a working system than it is to get an optimized system working.
  - cromwellian 8y ago
    It's not easier to optimize a working system for consumers if "optimization" == "not dying". What will happen is you will deoptimize your brand's safety and find yourself regulated.
  - StavrosK 8y ago
    So when are they going to get them working?
    - Fricken 8y ago
      Beats me. It could be a while before we see anything that can compete with conventional rideshare at scale.
  - sytelus 8y ago
    Often reverse is true. Trying to optimize system with million lines of code may require serious change in architecture and much harder because of backward compatibility and all the legacy baggage. As many people would describe it, it much harder to fix an airplane that must also continue to stay in the air.
sytelus 8y ago
“In my view, it’s a crutch that will drive companies to a local maximum that they will find very hard to get out of,” Musk said. He added, “Perhaps I am wrong, and I will look like a fool. But I am quite certain that I am not.” https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/7/16988628/elon-musk-lidar-self-driving-car-tesla https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/7/16988628/elon-musk-lidar-s...
sangnoir 8y ago
Their forward facing radar has failed to avoid crashes into big, stationary objects (at least 2 semi trailers, a fire truck, and more). The explanation I got was that radar is rather noisy, so it's handy to filter-out stationary objects (like road signs, broken down vehicles on the shoulder, and fatally, any any semi trailer crossing your lane)

tomComb 8y ago

I don't think anyone wants to use Lidar - the claim is that they need it to achieve full, safe, autonomy. If it turns out that it isn't needed than Tesla will be in a great position. But only time will tell.

somethoughts 8y ago

I think it also fundamentally depends on the business model being pursued: - If you are trying to sell the Model 3 directly to the end consumer with autonomous mode, the extra $10K for Lidar and bulk (which will greatly effect the exterior design) are definitely non-starters. - If you are going to robo-taxi route (such as Waymo and Uber), the extra one time $10K cost to add lidar for the 5 year life of the car is probably a blip on the income statement of the operator as compared to a full time human driver which probably costs $10K PER MONTH for the lifetime of the service. For the robo-taxi business model - its a bit of a no brainer - they could stick every sensor known to man on the car and still make out like a warlord by getting rid of the human driver but maintained a 100% safety record. Plus making the car stand-out with a unique Lidar inclusive shape is a great marketing differentiator. Also reduces your liability if a taxi rider ever sues since you can claim you have redundancy in the system.

bobsil1 8y ago

- Only a matter of time (evolved AGI research) before vision suffices. We know it can work because of bio evolution. - Also only a matter of time before lidar cheap enough that even Tesla will add for redundancy and edge cases.