6 ms·

I'm the first one to admit that the line is fuzzy. I read this story [1] by Glenn Greenwald (of Snowden interview fame), and I realized that I was not ok with

I'm the first one to admit that the line is fuzzy. I read this story [1] by Glenn Greenwald (of Snowden interview fame), and I realized that I was not ok with gestation crates for pigs, or the practices espoused by the industrial farming of any animal. I do not object to raising animals and eating them, but I do object to essentially keeping them in brutal, squalid conditions. Animals should have access to the outdoors, be allowed to pursue their own social connections, have enough space to stretch and exercise, have feed that's natural and high quality, and generally exist in a comfortable way. Totally acknowledge that's my own definition. It's an arbitrary line in the sand to say, "Killing an animal is ok, causing suffering to an animal before killing it is not". I just... read the article and couldn't stomach letting any of my money flow to companies that would think that sort of behavior was ok. [1] https://theintercept.com/2017/10/05/factory-farms-fbi-missing-piglets-animal-rights-glenn-greenwald/ https://theintercept.com/2017/10/05/factory-farms-fbi-missin...

firethief 8y ago
That theoretical distinction makes sense to me, but I don't see how it would be possible to support one kind of animal agriculture and not the other with purchasing habits. When most consumers don't distinguish provenance, demand for animal products is fungible.
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  What I did: stop purchasing meat from the supermarket. Stop eating meat at restaurants. Find a local farmer and source a whole animal to split with your friends. Visit the farm, meet the farmer. A whole beef is a few thousand dollars, and splits nicely into 8ths. We spent, I believe, ~$6.50/lb for organic, grass fed beef. It's more time and cost up front, but now we have a freezer full of meat to draw from when we need to. If I eat meat, it's from that one animal. We don't eat meat often at home.
  - EliRivers 8y ago
    Apropos of just shootin' the breeze, could you have also met the animal? I wonder if that would make a further difference. I eat meat, but I put my hand up and say that if I ordered a steak in a restaurant and they brought out the cow and gave me a rock, and I had to beat the cow to death with the rock myself, I think I'd change my order. I'm not trying to make any points here; just freewheeling in conversation with what I know about myself.
    - Pfhreak 8y ago
      Totally. Not every farmer will let you, but I definitely had the opportunity. (My farmer gave me the choice between three animals.) I think the 'bashing it with a rock' is sort of the thing I'm trying to avoid. My farmer brings a USDA butcher to his site to kill the animal (the kills are done away from the pasture space). The offal is removed there. If you want the tongue, heart, liver, etc. you show up on slaughter day and cart them away. The carcass was then taken to a local butcher shop, where it was processed into steaks, ground beef, roasts, etc. at my direction -- how thick did you want steaks, how big did you want roasts, etc. Being involved in this way is surprisingly intimate -- seeing the animal, being on the farm the day of it's slaughter (though I did not witness the slaughter), and working with the butcher to define how it will be broken down taught me so much more about how my food is prepared than anything you'd get from the grocery store.
      - emgeee 8y ago
        That's really interesting, I'd read a blog post about the process.
      - rubicon33 8y ago
        I've been following this thread and it's gotten me curious. I can't help but wonder - do you have some kind of personal connection to this farmer? How does one source a farmer, let alone one that is willing to let you meet the cow, be there on slaughter day, etc. These are all things that are foreign to most people.
        8y ago
  - sridca 8y ago
    Food cooperatives are another option, which is what I increasingly use: http://www.lamauve.com/ http://www.lamauve.com/ They taste better than grocery store meat too.
  - giobox 8y ago
    I really admire your efforts, but "Find a local farmer and source a whole animal to split with your friends" is a really tall ask for many people I would argue. I personally would likely struggle to convince anyone I know to enter some kind of cooperative livestock purchase/kill/process/store arrangement. As a matter of curiosity, how willing is the average livestock farmer to enter into such an agreement with private individuals?
    - Pfhreak 8y ago
      It was trivial? Many of the farmers list their rates on their websites. With my friends, it was "Hey, anyone want to buy 50lbs of meat? It's $XYZ dollars per 50lbs. 50lbs is about one medium freezer full." I put out the call to about 20 people, and got 5 very interested people, and about 5 maybe next times.
    - Mvhsz 8y ago
      It's not a widespread practice, but it's more common than I expected when I started looking into it. EatWild[1] maintains a directory of meat and dairy farmers that sell directly to consumers, they seem to have most of the US covered. Anecdotally I've also purchased humanely raised meat/eggs through CSAs that aren't listed here and offer smaller amounts than an entire animal. [1] http://www.eatwild.com/index.html http://www.eatwild.com/index.html
    - kbenson 8y ago
      > a really tall ask for many people I would argue I agree, but I don't think they were doing much beyond stating their own goals and methods. As a guide to what you can do and how you can attempt to go about it, I think it serves well. > I personally would likely struggle to convince anyone I know to enter some kind of cooperative livestock purchase/kill/process/store arrangement. As a matter of curiosity, how willing is the average livestock farmer to enter into such an agreement with private individuals? I imagine some butchers might provide cows where you can check the providence, at least in more populated areas. It wouldn't be quite as cheap as a cooperative project, but it would almost definitely be less time consuming, and supporting a free market for this good has additional benefits.
    - 8y ago
m000 8y ago
I'm following pretty much the same definition with you. Compassion In World Farming [1] also campaigns (more or less) along these lines. So you're definitely not alone. CIWF also operates in the US, but the campaigning in Europe seems more extensive. It is shocking the amount of abuse the animals may go through just to save us pennies. E.g. I was shocked to read about live animal transport conditions [2], only to have them slaughtered in another country. [1] https://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/ https://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/ [2] https://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/live-animal-transport/ https://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/live-animal-transport/

firethief 8y ago

That theoretical distinction makes sense to me, but I don't see how it would be possible to support one kind of animal agriculture and not the other with purchasing habits. When most consumers don't distinguish provenance, demand for animal products is fungible.

Pfhreak 8y ago
What I did: stop purchasing meat from the supermarket. Stop eating meat at restaurants. Find a local farmer and source a whole animal to split with your friends. Visit the farm, meet the farmer. A whole beef is a few thousand dollars, and splits nicely into 8ths. We spent, I believe, ~$6.50/lb for organic, grass fed beef. It's more time and cost up front, but now we have a freezer full of meat to draw from when we need to. If I eat meat, it's from that one animal. We don't eat meat often at home.
- EliRivers 8y ago
  Apropos of just shootin' the breeze, could you have also met the animal? I wonder if that would make a further difference. I eat meat, but I put my hand up and say that if I ordered a steak in a restaurant and they brought out the cow and gave me a rock, and I had to beat the cow to death with the rock myself, I think I'd change my order. I'm not trying to make any points here; just freewheeling in conversation with what I know about myself.
  - Pfhreak 8y ago
    Totally. Not every farmer will let you, but I definitely had the opportunity. (My farmer gave me the choice between three animals.) I think the 'bashing it with a rock' is sort of the thing I'm trying to avoid. My farmer brings a USDA butcher to his site to kill the animal (the kills are done away from the pasture space). The offal is removed there. If you want the tongue, heart, liver, etc. you show up on slaughter day and cart them away. The carcass was then taken to a local butcher shop, where it was processed into steaks, ground beef, roasts, etc. at my direction -- how thick did you want steaks, how big did you want roasts, etc. Being involved in this way is surprisingly intimate -- seeing the animal, being on the farm the day of it's slaughter (though I did not witness the slaughter), and working with the butcher to define how it will be broken down taught me so much more about how my food is prepared than anything you'd get from the grocery store.
    - emgeee 8y ago
      That's really interesting, I'd read a blog post about the process.
    - rubicon33 8y ago
      I've been following this thread and it's gotten me curious. I can't help but wonder - do you have some kind of personal connection to this farmer? How does one source a farmer, let alone one that is willing to let you meet the cow, be there on slaughter day, etc. These are all things that are foreign to most people.
      - 8y ago
- sridca 8y ago
  Food cooperatives are another option, which is what I increasingly use: http://www.lamauve.com/ http://www.lamauve.com/ They taste better than grocery store meat too.
- giobox 8y ago
  I really admire your efforts, but "Find a local farmer and source a whole animal to split with your friends" is a really tall ask for many people I would argue. I personally would likely struggle to convince anyone I know to enter some kind of cooperative livestock purchase/kill/process/store arrangement. As a matter of curiosity, how willing is the average livestock farmer to enter into such an agreement with private individuals?
  - Pfhreak 8y ago
    It was trivial? Many of the farmers list their rates on their websites. With my friends, it was "Hey, anyone want to buy 50lbs of meat? It's $XYZ dollars per 50lbs. 50lbs is about one medium freezer full." I put out the call to about 20 people, and got 5 very interested people, and about 5 maybe next times.
  - Mvhsz 8y ago
    It's not a widespread practice, but it's more common than I expected when I started looking into it. EatWild[1] maintains a directory of meat and dairy farmers that sell directly to consumers, they seem to have most of the US covered. Anecdotally I've also purchased humanely raised meat/eggs through CSAs that aren't listed here and offer smaller amounts than an entire animal. [1] http://www.eatwild.com/index.html http://www.eatwild.com/index.html
  - kbenson 8y ago
    > a really tall ask for many people I would argue I agree, but I don't think they were doing much beyond stating their own goals and methods. As a guide to what you can do and how you can attempt to go about it, I think it serves well. > I personally would likely struggle to convince anyone I know to enter some kind of cooperative livestock purchase/kill/process/store arrangement. As a matter of curiosity, how willing is the average livestock farmer to enter into such an agreement with private individuals? I imagine some butchers might provide cows where you can check the providence, at least in more populated areas. It wouldn't be quite as cheap as a cooperative project, but it would almost definitely be less time consuming, and supporting a free market for this good has additional benefits.
  - 8y ago

m000 8y ago

I'm following pretty much the same definition with you. Compassion In World Farming [1] also campaigns (more or less) along these lines. So you're definitely not alone. CIWF also operates in the US, but the campaigning in Europe seems more extensive. It is shocking the amount of abuse the animals may go through just to save us pennies. E.g. I was shocked to read about live animal transport conditions [2], only to have them slaughtered in another country. [1] https://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/ https://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/ [2] https://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/live-animal-transport/ https://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/live-animal-transport/