5 ms·

I could be wrong, but I assume that Google mostly does this because of the huge amount of malicious garbage bot traffic on the web. Once you go fully anonymous

I could be wrong, but I assume that Google mostly does this because of the huge amount of malicious garbage bot traffic on the web. Once you go fully anonymous and private, there's no way to distinguish you between the hordes of malicious traffic. But there seems like there should be a technological solution. Google knows what a "legitimate" user looks like. Either because they come from a safe IP, or they're registered Google users, or they have a normal established browser history. But using your legitimate identify compromises your privacy, because then your IP/user-account can be correlated to your personal identity. So, let's create zero-knowledge proof identity schemes. Using your legitimate, but non-private, identity you "register" an ephemeral, private anonymous identity. But it's done using zero-knowledge proof, such that Google has no idea about who a particular anonymous identity besides that it must belong to one of its several million legitimate identities.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
gambler 8y ago
>I could be wrong, but I assume that Google mostly does this because of the huge amount of malicious garbage bot traffic on the web. Once you go fully anonymous and private, there's no way to distinguish you between the hordes of malicious traffic. What's "malicious" about simply opening a page on a website? Google bots are doing this all the time and they don't have to solve CAPTCHAs.
- jstarfish 8y ago
  If your site is at all worth scraping, it will be scraped, republished and monetized by someone other than you. Google plays the long game though. By setting themselves up for being the gatekeeper of bot traffic, any bot belonging to a competing search engine cannot possibly index the web as well as Google can.
- gpvos 8y ago
  I assume Google Recaptcha has a way to recognize its own Google Bots.
  - tareqak 8y ago
    Isn’t that kind of an antitrust thing? How does a good, non-Google not solve a Google Recaptcha?
    - vageli 8y ago
      > Isn’t that kind of an antitrust thing? > How does a good, non-Google not solve a Google Recaptcha? I'm not sure if it's antitrust, because I would imagine that website admins would _like_ Google to have access to their site while excluding others. What people fail to realize, I think, is that if this practice had been common, something like Google would have never came to be in the first place! Imagine if websites blocked all but AskJeeves user agents from crawling them?
      - tareqak 8y ago
        Just to be clear, I meant to say "a good, non-Google bot".
captn3m0 8y ago
It somewhat exists: https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-supports-privacy-pass/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-supports-privacy-pass... Google doesn’t implement it directly, but any CloudFlare powered website that shows you a Google Captcha because of CF is supported.
akyu 8y ago
I would love for something like that to happen, and given all of the activity in the blockchain space, someone will probably come up with a clever solution. I just have a hard time imagining a motivation for Google to switch to using such a thing even if it were invented. They way it works now benefits them. But even just looking at it from a purely technical perspective... If CAPTCHAs are intended to be "completely automated public Turing test to tell computers and humans apart", then its quite clear that they no longer accomplish this. I am a human and I can't pass. The model is wrong, build a better one.
- sametmax 8y ago
  There are not. They are here to save money.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  > If CAPTCHAs are intended to be "completely automated public Turing test to tell computers and humans apart", then its quite clear that they no longer accomplish this. I am a human and I can't pass. The model is wrong, build a better one. Google’s CAPTCHA probably knows that you are a human, some of your answers are correct, and Google already uses the answers you give to improve its Maps offering like it always has. The fact that it still won’t let you pass is presumably a way of punishing you for trying to stay anonymous.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  >> If CAPTCHAs are intended to be "completely automated public Turing test That's what google says the are for, but they aren't used that way by everyone. Many websites use them not to detect machines but to slow down the humans. They want to make something burdensome so they add the captcha. Maybe they want you to subscribe, pay money, to avoid it. Maybe they just want you to spend a few more seconds looking at of some banner ad. Or maybe including a captcha ticks a useless security box on some compliance form.
Namrog84 8y ago
Although I provide no link to them. I believe I've read numerous articles and studies that even with generic anonymized data that many have been successful in deanonymozing the user behind the data. Depending what they data is. It might take more points and samples but I think most people would be surprised how few data points you need before you can be identified. Even from the most mundane things and especially if they have non anonymized data to compare or find you agaisnt
exolymph 8y ago
A resource for anyone interested in zero-knowledge cryptography: https://zkp.science/ https://zkp.science/
Despegar 8y ago
>But there seems like there should be a technological solution. Even if there was (there isn't) I wouldn't waste a single second thinking about or advocating for it. The only sustainable "solution" can come from Congress and it would look almost exactly like GDPR.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

gambler 8y ago

>I could be wrong, but I assume that Google mostly does this because of the huge amount of malicious garbage bot traffic on the web. Once you go fully anonymous and private, there's no way to distinguish you between the hordes of malicious traffic. What's "malicious" about simply opening a page on a website? Google bots are doing this all the time and they don't have to solve CAPTCHAs.

jstarfish 8y ago
If your site is at all worth scraping, it will be scraped, republished and monetized by someone other than you. Google plays the long game though. By setting themselves up for being the gatekeeper of bot traffic, any bot belonging to a competing search engine cannot possibly index the web as well as Google can.
gpvos 8y ago
I assume Google Recaptcha has a way to recognize its own Google Bots.
- tareqak 8y ago
  Isn’t that kind of an antitrust thing? How does a good, non-Google not solve a Google Recaptcha?
  - vageli 8y ago
    > Isn’t that kind of an antitrust thing? > How does a good, non-Google not solve a Google Recaptcha? I'm not sure if it's antitrust, because I would imagine that website admins would _like_ Google to have access to their site while excluding others. What people fail to realize, I think, is that if this practice had been common, something like Google would have never came to be in the first place! Imagine if websites blocked all but AskJeeves user agents from crawling them?
    - tareqak 8y ago
      Just to be clear, I meant to say "a good, non-Google bot".

captn3m0 8y ago

It somewhat exists: https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-supports-privacy-pass/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-supports-privacy-pass... Google doesn’t implement it directly, but any CloudFlare powered website that shows you a Google Captcha because of CF is supported.

akyu 8y ago

I would love for something like that to happen, and given all of the activity in the blockchain space, someone will probably come up with a clever solution. I just have a hard time imagining a motivation for Google to switch to using such a thing even if it were invented. They way it works now benefits them. But even just looking at it from a purely technical perspective... If CAPTCHAs are intended to be "completely automated public Turing test to tell computers and humans apart", then its quite clear that they no longer accomplish this. I am a human and I can't pass. The model is wrong, build a better one.

sametmax 8y ago
There are not. They are here to save money.
Mediterraneo10 8y ago
> If CAPTCHAs are intended to be "completely automated public Turing test to tell computers and humans apart", then its quite clear that they no longer accomplish this. I am a human and I can't pass. The model is wrong, build a better one. Google’s CAPTCHA probably knows that you are a human, some of your answers are correct, and Google already uses the answers you give to improve its Maps offering like it always has. The fact that it still won’t let you pass is presumably a way of punishing you for trying to stay anonymous.
sandworm101 8y ago
>> If CAPTCHAs are intended to be "completely automated public Turing test That's what google says the are for, but they aren't used that way by everyone. Many websites use them not to detect machines but to slow down the humans. They want to make something burdensome so they add the captcha. Maybe they want you to subscribe, pay money, to avoid it. Maybe they just want you to spend a few more seconds looking at of some banner ad. Or maybe including a captcha ticks a useless security box on some compliance form.

Namrog84 8y ago

Although I provide no link to them. I believe I've read numerous articles and studies that even with generic anonymized data that many have been successful in deanonymozing the user behind the data. Depending what they data is. It might take more points and samples but I think most people would be surprised how few data points you need before you can be identified. Even from the most mundane things and especially if they have non anonymized data to compare or find you agaisnt

exolymph 8y ago

A resource for anyone interested in zero-knowledge cryptography: https://zkp.science/ https://zkp.science/

Despegar 8y ago

>But there seems like there should be a technological solution. Even if there was (there isn't) I wouldn't waste a single second thinking about or advocating for it. The only sustainable "solution" can come from Congress and it would look almost exactly like GDPR.