6 ms·

> its also par for the course No, it is not. The world would be a much better place if we all started doing what is right. This isn't difficult: stealing and c

by jwr 8y ago

> its also par for the course No, it is not. The world would be a much better place if we all started doing what is right. This isn't difficult: stealing and copying API design and API documentation is wrong. Make a note of the company, people who work there, and VCs who invested. Computers are good at quickly finding information: one day you might want to do business with one of those people or VCs and digging up this information might change your mind.

evanlivingston 8y ago
Why is it wrong?
- selectiveshift 8y ago
  Because people and companies who do this add no value to society. They are parasites.
  - evanlivingston 8y ago
    What if they provide the product at a lower price?
    - king_magic 8y ago
      Even then, they are still parasites with no ethics.
      - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
        If you won't throw your ethics into the pit for power, someone else will. And them everybody will be forced to throw the shared ethics or be outcompeted. And collectively, everyone will be poorer as a result. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
        king_magic 8y ago
        I'll take the high road, thank you. I'm perfectly fine taking satisfaction in being morally and ethically superior for not stealing someone else's hard work.
        asveikau 8y ago
        I think you draw the wrong conclusion, even from your link. Your link as I read it is basically saying we are all collectively responsible for good and evil, and that there are supposedly unpopular evils which we ourselves create and implicitly endorse, often counterintuitively. That doesn't mean we ought to just give up and worship whatever worst thing capitalism produces. If you look at Ginsberg's long history of political activism as an example it's certainly not what he and those around him lived. At a separate scale from that discussion we need to "play our side" of the game, and that will necessarily involve your personal interpretation of ethics. I believe it is a kind of laziness to dismiss that.
        schwurb 8y ago
        I leave it to that someone else to have to resolve the cognitive dissonance. One concrete benefit might be not doing in my 50ies due to stress-related health issues. And I would happily live in a poorer society with better ethics any day (given some minimum threshold of live quality).
    - gowld 8y ago
      Stealing from Peter and donating some of the gains to Paul is not ethical.
    - rorykoehler 8y ago
      For how long? Until the VC money runs out and they either jack up the price or go bust?
- ben509 8y ago
  Everyone getting into business knows that competitors want to copy them. Not only that, there are only so many ways to do things, so it's usually a question of how much you're copying. So inferior goods (using the economic term) can add low-cost options for consumers and are thus a social benefit. While copying itself isn't bad, in practice those companies often releasing products that are unfit for sale or engage in deceptive advertising.
- asveikau 8y ago
  Copyright infringement? Plagiarism? I hope most here can agree that taking a web page, doing command-C, command-V, changing a few words in a small amount and passing it off as your own work is wrong. This is not even about cloning an API.
matz1 8y ago
Right or wrong is relative. If to me this is not wrong then what are you gonna do about it.
- jerf 8y ago
  I don't particularly agree with you; I've often thought that amounts to trying to win the debate by nuking the entire playing field. Even if you win, have you? But I can spot you that anyhow, because there's a perfectly reasonable fallback position: This is illegal. It's a copyright infringement at the very least, and possibly other things as well. And being "illegal", the "what are you gonna do about it" actually has clear, well defined answers. Smartcar.com is doing them a favor by serving a cease & desist, as there is nothing preventing them from moving straight to legal action.
  - janoc 8y ago
    Copying a design is not illegal. Unless the design is patented (which it doesn't seem to be or the OP would likely have said so in the article), everyone is free to copy any design they want. That you wish something was true doesn't make it so, unfortunately. What is not OK is copying the documentation verbatim, that is copyrighted. However, that is, frankly, the least of the problems (and easiest to rectify) when someone is taking your product idea wholesale.
    - jerf 8y ago
      So, I'm wrong about this act being illegal, because it's not illegal, except for the parts where it is illegal?
    - cgy1 8y ago
      I see two issued US patents for smartcar: https://patents.google.com/patent/US9870656B2/ https://patents.google.com/patent/US9870656B2/ https://patents.google.com/patent/US10169825B2/ https://patents.google.com/patent/US10169825B2/
      - 8y ago
cabalamat 8y ago
> This isn't difficult: stealing and copying API design and API documentation is wrong. Copying APIs is fine, as far as I'm concerned. The world is as better place if hardware and software is compatible with each other, and common interfaces enable that.

by jwr 8y ago

evanlivingston 8y ago

Why is it wrong?

selectiveshift 8y ago
Because people and companies who do this add no value to society. They are parasites.
- evanlivingston 8y ago
  What if they provide the product at a lower price?
  - king_magic 8y ago
    Even then, they are still parasites with no ethics.
    - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
      If you won't throw your ethics into the pit for power, someone else will. And them everybody will be forced to throw the shared ethics or be outcompeted. And collectively, everyone will be poorer as a result. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
      - king_magic 8y ago
        I'll take the high road, thank you. I'm perfectly fine taking satisfaction in being morally and ethically superior for not stealing someone else's hard work.
      - asveikau 8y ago
        I think you draw the wrong conclusion, even from your link. Your link as I read it is basically saying we are all collectively responsible for good and evil, and that there are supposedly unpopular evils which we ourselves create and implicitly endorse, often counterintuitively. That doesn't mean we ought to just give up and worship whatever worst thing capitalism produces. If you look at Ginsberg's long history of political activism as an example it's certainly not what he and those around him lived. At a separate scale from that discussion we need to "play our side" of the game, and that will necessarily involve your personal interpretation of ethics. I believe it is a kind of laziness to dismiss that.
      - schwurb 8y ago
        I leave it to that someone else to have to resolve the cognitive dissonance. One concrete benefit might be not doing in my 50ies due to stress-related health issues. And I would happily live in a poorer society with better ethics any day (given some minimum threshold of live quality).
  - gowld 8y ago
    Stealing from Peter and donating some of the gains to Paul is not ethical.
  - rorykoehler 8y ago
    For how long? Until the VC money runs out and they either jack up the price or go bust?
ben509 8y ago
Everyone getting into business knows that competitors want to copy them. Not only that, there are only so many ways to do things, so it's usually a question of how much you're copying. So inferior goods (using the economic term) can add low-cost options for consumers and are thus a social benefit. While copying itself isn't bad, in practice those companies often releasing products that are unfit for sale or engage in deceptive advertising.
asveikau 8y ago
Copyright infringement? Plagiarism? I hope most here can agree that taking a web page, doing command-C, command-V, changing a few words in a small amount and passing it off as your own work is wrong. This is not even about cloning an API.

matz1 8y ago

Right or wrong is relative. If to me this is not wrong then what are you gonna do about it.

jerf 8y ago
I don't particularly agree with you; I've often thought that amounts to trying to win the debate by nuking the entire playing field. Even if you win, have you? But I can spot you that anyhow, because there's a perfectly reasonable fallback position: This is illegal. It's a copyright infringement at the very least, and possibly other things as well. And being "illegal", the "what are you gonna do about it" actually has clear, well defined answers. Smartcar.com is doing them a favor by serving a cease & desist, as there is nothing preventing them from moving straight to legal action.
- janoc 8y ago
  Copying a design is not illegal. Unless the design is patented (which it doesn't seem to be or the OP would likely have said so in the article), everyone is free to copy any design they want. That you wish something was true doesn't make it so, unfortunately. What is not OK is copying the documentation verbatim, that is copyrighted. However, that is, frankly, the least of the problems (and easiest to rectify) when someone is taking your product idea wholesale.
  - jerf 8y ago
    So, I'm wrong about this act being illegal, because it's not illegal, except for the parts where it is illegal?
  - cgy1 8y ago
    I see two issued US patents for smartcar: https://patents.google.com/patent/US9870656B2/ https://patents.google.com/patent/US9870656B2/ https://patents.google.com/patent/US10169825B2/ https://patents.google.com/patent/US10169825B2/
    - 8y ago

cabalamat 8y ago

> This isn't difficult: stealing and copying API design and API documentation is wrong. Copying APIs is fine, as far as I'm concerned. The world is as better place if hardware and software is compatible with each other, and common interfaces enable that.