8 ms·

There was a German VC firm that was, as I recall, very upfront about this. Clone a successful US company before it got to the European market. The Chinese also

There was a German VC firm that was, as I recall, very upfront about this. Clone a successful US company before it got to the European market. The Chinese also do this. (As in, the government seems to encourage it outright.) The culture and language barrier do make for an effective moat. It usually takes significant effort and even some cultural change for a company to get its legs for international operation.

aw3c2 8y ago
> The Chinese You mean "Chinese companies". "The chinese" is just racist.
- xapata 8y ago
  I'm Chinese and I didn't think it was racist. I interpreted the assertion as a description of the Chinese government, not Chinese people.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    For the record, I'm Asian and my wife was born in Fujian province, China.
- SolarNet 8y ago
  No he means "The Chinese". Not the people, the government. He was quite clear about that in the full quote. > The Chinese also do this. (As in, the government seems to encourage it outright.) Way to be outraged through your own selective reading.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    Okay, to be fair, I wrote the comment, then immediately thought, okay that could be misinterpreted, then added the parenthetical right afterwards. I didn't do an "(EDIT:)" because I thought no one would have come in so soon. The poor sap might have fallen prey to my foolish decision to use an optimistic concurrency protocol.
    - mkhalil 8y ago
      I commend you for your honesty. Also, I don't think that he was totally wrong in calling it out, but the phrasing he used was very unnecessary. It would be better phrased as a question, like: "Don't you think it's racist to refer to them as "The Chinese"?" or something less dumb than accusing you of racism. I understand HN is a tech place, but since race can play a factor in practically all subjects, it can be a healthy discussion if spoken about maturely.
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        it can be a healthy discussion if spoken about maturely Knee jerk rapid reactions aren't an example of "spoken about maturely." The normalization and acceptance of such reactions is what leads to toxic community atmospheres and the "social epistemological catastrophe" of a witch-hunt mentality. In other words, "shoot first, ask questions later" is against the stated policy around these parts of the Principle of Charity. Just look around the Internet, and tell me what you see in this regard. I'm obliged to link this again, for the good of all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc
      - mkhalil 8y ago
        > Knee jerk rapid reactions aren't an example of "spoken about maturely." I literally said his response was dumb so I'm not really sure what your point is by claiming I am considering his reaction mature. I understand if you misread my comment, but I'm baffled otherwise. Thankfully, this is the internet and we can talk it through if we want. (edit: typo)
        stcredzero 8y ago
        I'm not really sure what your point is by claiming I am considering his reaction mature. Actually, your comment could indeed be read that way. Therefore I'm obliged to push back against such a position, even if you didn't mean it precisely that way. I'm generally having a conversation for the sake of the 3rd party. The lurkers are the majority of this site's users. Thankfully, this is the internet and we can talk it through if we want. My un-provable suspicion is that civil discourse itself is being targeted by nefarious forces. It's either that, or the emergent incentive structures of social media as currently constructed are having the same effect. Or both. It's bad either way.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  Is it also racist to say, "The Americans"?
  - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    Its easier to be faux-outraged. Now its the Chinese that encourage ignoring copyright/patent/trademark/trade secret laws. It helps them get their country ramped up with regards to industrialization. Japan did so before that, in the 60s and 70s. The USA also did so when we broke off from England. And later, Hollywood was made to get away from Edison's and others patents. But complaining that "The Chinese" is derogatory is petty posturing and fake outrage.
- jstarfish 8y ago
  China is a nation, not a race. Race itself is a social construct. Nice try though!
  - alexmlamb2 8y ago
    "Race itself is a social construct." What do people mean by this exactly? I've heard some people make the case that the exact boundaries between ethnic groups can be socially constructed, which makes sense to me (like how one draws a hard line between two groups which have some admixture). But the idea that ethnicities have nothing to do with biology and is a purely social phenomenon sounds like a lay-person's misunderstanding of the above claim. For example, it should be obvious that using a sperm/egg donor can lead to a child of a different ethnicity even if the socialization is kept the same (which you can't necessarily do perfectly in reality, but still).
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      The idea that ethnicity means anything beyond appearance and a few specific genetic proclivities is the social construct. That, and the idea that "races" can be clearly distinguished and defined, as you said.
    - olalonde 8y ago
      > What do people mean by this exactly? I've heard some people make the case that the exact boundaries between ethnic groups can be socially constructed, which makes sense to me (like how one draws a hard line between two groups which have some admixture). Pretty spot on.
    - noxToken 8y ago
      Or people trying to be too inclusive and forward thinking without thinking about the implications of what is being said. Race and ethnicity are so closely tied, that from a biological standpoint, it's almost pointless to try to separate them. I made a comment about this previously in reply: >This isn't really a good argument. Western people use lactose in a variety of ways such as a drink additive (tea), for cooking (cheese, cream-based sauces), and even consuming by the glass (good ol' fashion milk). However, there's a high prevalence of lactose intolerance in Asian countries. There are just some sensitivities, diseases, and reactions that are more prevalent in some ethnicities than others including lactose intolerance, sickle-cell anemia, and Tay-Sachs disease.[0] [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19420642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19420642
- samatman 8y ago
  In addition to being unwelcome in its own right, this sort of comment is against Hacker News guidelines. Please don’t do this here.
  - a13n 8y ago
    Why is it against HN guidelines? If something's actually racist, it should definitely be called out. Not saying the original comment was racist, but in general I don't think we should be promoting racism.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      Exercising the principle of charity != Promoting [X] If we all started calling out everything that might possibly be [X] without being absolute certain, then this stance to accept false positives would result in far too much noise in the form of one of the harshest accusations in 2019. This sort of stance, where the Presumption of Innocence is sacrificed, to prioritize catching all the guilty, the innocents be damned, is also the stance that leads to the witchhunt mentality. It's a social epistemological catastrophe, where everyone suspects everyone and accusations for ulterior motives cannot be detected. In 2019, it seems as if this stance is designed to and deployed to cause a social epistemological catastrophe over social media. I suspect this is actually being done! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc This is precisely why Blackstone's formulation came to be, and why it's necessary to avoid toxic and tyrannical societies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio
- countryqt30 8y ago
  Go home to China and cry.
  - dang 8y ago
    If you do anything like this on HN again we will ban you.
ssnistfajen 8y ago
But when "the Chinese" do the same thing, the reactions always seem to include something about "cheating", "stealing", and "copying" being "ingrained to their 'culture'", complete with some irrelevant anecdotes about some bad experience with Chinese tourists/coworkers/schoolmates or some geopolitical event being shared in the thread as if people are submitting their victim impact statements. This phenomenon appears to be unique to situations where the accused party is Chinese. No other nationality/ethnicity seem to suffer the same treatment on HN and elsewhere on the Internet.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  This phenomenon appears to be unique to situations where the accused party is Chinese. No other nationality/ethnicity seem to suffer the same treatment on HN and elsewhere on the Internet. Actually, it gets applied to all Asians. I know this firsthand as an Asian. It used to be applied to the Japanese with just as much fervor, especially in the 80's. (I lived through this.) I should think it was applied to the Americans in the early days of the US. I suspect it was applied to Germans and Russians when they were consolidating and industrializing those nation states. Here's where bigotry comes in, in the 2019 style: When white people do it, it's "appropriation." When Asian people do it, it's because they have no creativity and can only imitate. In truth, it's all cultural appropriation, and cultural appropriation is actually an engine of human progress and creativity. The charge of copying gets levied as a protectionist tactic by those already of generally higher status. The charge of appropriation gets gets levied as an aggressive tactic by those who desire that status for themselves. Either way, it's a waste of time better spent learning, growing, and changing. Appropriation is good. It's how progress is made!
  - ci5er 8y ago
    As a USian, when I lived in Japan (working in semiconductor) from the mid-80s to the mid 90s, people always seemed to make this copying claim. My response was- 1) Copying an ISA is not copying architecture 2) JP was innovating in manufacturing, not ISAs, which is why they got 95% yield, not 65. 3) Yes - they weren't great systems software guys, and 4) Have you seen Nintendo's games? Clearly they can create and innovate and program. The trope irritated me, but it seems to be a psychological defense move whenever an emerging contender challenges an incumbent (got to get the base features first == copying)

aw3c2 8y ago

> The Chinese You mean "Chinese companies". "The chinese" is just racist.

xapata 8y ago
I'm Chinese and I didn't think it was racist. I interpreted the assertion as a description of the Chinese government, not Chinese people.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  For the record, I'm Asian and my wife was born in Fujian province, China.
SolarNet 8y ago
No he means "The Chinese". Not the people, the government. He was quite clear about that in the full quote. > The Chinese also do this. (As in, the government seems to encourage it outright.) Way to be outraged through your own selective reading.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Okay, to be fair, I wrote the comment, then immediately thought, okay that could be misinterpreted, then added the parenthetical right afterwards. I didn't do an "(EDIT:)" because I thought no one would have come in so soon. The poor sap might have fallen prey to my foolish decision to use an optimistic concurrency protocol.
  - mkhalil 8y ago
    I commend you for your honesty. Also, I don't think that he was totally wrong in calling it out, but the phrasing he used was very unnecessary. It would be better phrased as a question, like: "Don't you think it's racist to refer to them as "The Chinese"?" or something less dumb than accusing you of racism. I understand HN is a tech place, but since race can play a factor in practically all subjects, it can be a healthy discussion if spoken about maturely.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      it can be a healthy discussion if spoken about maturely Knee jerk rapid reactions aren't an example of "spoken about maturely." The normalization and acceptance of such reactions is what leads to toxic community atmospheres and the "social epistemological catastrophe" of a witch-hunt mentality. In other words, "shoot first, ask questions later" is against the stated policy around these parts of the Principle of Charity. Just look around the Internet, and tell me what you see in this regard. I'm obliged to link this again, for the good of all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc
    - mkhalil 8y ago
      > Knee jerk rapid reactions aren't an example of "spoken about maturely." I literally said his response was dumb so I'm not really sure what your point is by claiming I am considering his reaction mature. I understand if you misread my comment, but I'm baffled otherwise. Thankfully, this is the internet and we can talk it through if we want. (edit: typo)
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        I'm not really sure what your point is by claiming I am considering his reaction mature. Actually, your comment could indeed be read that way. Therefore I'm obliged to push back against such a position, even if you didn't mean it precisely that way. I'm generally having a conversation for the sake of the 3rd party. The lurkers are the majority of this site's users. Thankfully, this is the internet and we can talk it through if we want. My un-provable suspicion is that civil discourse itself is being targeted by nefarious forces. It's either that, or the emergent incentive structures of social media as currently constructed are having the same effect. Or both. It's bad either way.
jjeaff 8y ago
Is it also racist to say, "The Americans"?
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  Its easier to be faux-outraged. Now its the Chinese that encourage ignoring copyright/patent/trademark/trade secret laws. It helps them get their country ramped up with regards to industrialization. Japan did so before that, in the 60s and 70s. The USA also did so when we broke off from England. And later, Hollywood was made to get away from Edison's and others patents. But complaining that "The Chinese" is derogatory is petty posturing and fake outrage.
jstarfish 8y ago
China is a nation, not a race. Race itself is a social construct. Nice try though!
- alexmlamb2 8y ago
  "Race itself is a social construct." What do people mean by this exactly? I've heard some people make the case that the exact boundaries between ethnic groups can be socially constructed, which makes sense to me (like how one draws a hard line between two groups which have some admixture). But the idea that ethnicities have nothing to do with biology and is a purely social phenomenon sounds like a lay-person's misunderstanding of the above claim. For example, it should be obvious that using a sperm/egg donor can lead to a child of a different ethnicity even if the socialization is kept the same (which you can't necessarily do perfectly in reality, but still).
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    The idea that ethnicity means anything beyond appearance and a few specific genetic proclivities is the social construct. That, and the idea that "races" can be clearly distinguished and defined, as you said.
  - olalonde 8y ago
    > What do people mean by this exactly? I've heard some people make the case that the exact boundaries between ethnic groups can be socially constructed, which makes sense to me (like how one draws a hard line between two groups which have some admixture). Pretty spot on.
  - noxToken 8y ago
    Or people trying to be too inclusive and forward thinking without thinking about the implications of what is being said. Race and ethnicity are so closely tied, that from a biological standpoint, it's almost pointless to try to separate them. I made a comment about this previously in reply: >This isn't really a good argument. Western people use lactose in a variety of ways such as a drink additive (tea), for cooking (cheese, cream-based sauces), and even consuming by the glass (good ol' fashion milk). However, there's a high prevalence of lactose intolerance in Asian countries. There are just some sensitivities, diseases, and reactions that are more prevalent in some ethnicities than others including lactose intolerance, sickle-cell anemia, and Tay-Sachs disease.[0] [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19420642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19420642
samatman 8y ago
In addition to being unwelcome in its own right, this sort of comment is against Hacker News guidelines. Please don’t do this here.
- a13n 8y ago
  Why is it against HN guidelines? If something's actually racist, it should definitely be called out. Not saying the original comment was racist, but in general I don't think we should be promoting racism.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    Exercising the principle of charity != Promoting [X] If we all started calling out everything that might possibly be [X] without being absolute certain, then this stance to accept false positives would result in far too much noise in the form of one of the harshest accusations in 2019. This sort of stance, where the Presumption of Innocence is sacrificed, to prioritize catching all the guilty, the innocents be damned, is also the stance that leads to the witchhunt mentality. It's a social epistemological catastrophe, where everyone suspects everyone and accusations for ulterior motives cannot be detected. In 2019, it seems as if this stance is designed to and deployed to cause a social epistemological catastrophe over social media. I suspect this is actually being done! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc This is precisely why Blackstone's formulation came to be, and why it's necessary to avoid toxic and tyrannical societies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio
countryqt30 8y ago
Go home to China and cry.
- dang 8y ago
  If you do anything like this on HN again we will ban you.

ssnistfajen 8y ago

But when "the Chinese" do the same thing, the reactions always seem to include something about "cheating", "stealing", and "copying" being "ingrained to their 'culture'", complete with some irrelevant anecdotes about some bad experience with Chinese tourists/coworkers/schoolmates or some geopolitical event being shared in the thread as if people are submitting their victim impact statements. This phenomenon appears to be unique to situations where the accused party is Chinese. No other nationality/ethnicity seem to suffer the same treatment on HN and elsewhere on the Internet.

stcredzero 8y ago
This phenomenon appears to be unique to situations where the accused party is Chinese. No other nationality/ethnicity seem to suffer the same treatment on HN and elsewhere on the Internet. Actually, it gets applied to all Asians. I know this firsthand as an Asian. It used to be applied to the Japanese with just as much fervor, especially in the 80's. (I lived through this.) I should think it was applied to the Americans in the early days of the US. I suspect it was applied to Germans and Russians when they were consolidating and industrializing those nation states. Here's where bigotry comes in, in the 2019 style: When white people do it, it's "appropriation." When Asian people do it, it's because they have no creativity and can only imitate. In truth, it's all cultural appropriation, and cultural appropriation is actually an engine of human progress and creativity. The charge of copying gets levied as a protectionist tactic by those already of generally higher status. The charge of appropriation gets gets levied as an aggressive tactic by those who desire that status for themselves. Either way, it's a waste of time better spent learning, growing, and changing. Appropriation is good. It's how progress is made!
- ci5er 8y ago
  As a USian, when I lived in Japan (working in semiconductor) from the mid-80s to the mid 90s, people always seemed to make this copying claim. My response was- 1) Copying an ISA is not copying architecture 2) JP was innovating in manufacturing, not ISAs, which is why they got 95% yield, not 65. 3) Yes - they weren't great systems software guys, and 4) Have you seen Nintendo's games? Clearly they can create and innovate and program. The trope irritated me, but it seems to be a psychological defense move whenever an emerging contender challenges an incumbent (got to get the base features first == copying)