4 ms·

Why wouldn't you use in reference to China? It originates from the Cantonese language (probably because of the amount of Cantonese speakers in San Francisco ba

Why wouldn't you use in reference to China? It originates from the Cantonese language (probably because of the amount of Cantonese speakers in San Francisco back in the day) and in China.

BoorishBears 7y ago
Most people will know what it means if I say el <insert word>. But it's like if I only say el <insert word> when my Mexican friend is around. Just weird, and not necessary. Or since that example apparently goes over some of your heads, it’s like how some of you only use “bruh” and “yo” and “what’s good” around me, your black coworker and no one else.
- michaelscott 7y ago
  All your examples are false equivalences. The word "kowtow" is a perfect description of a relatively complicated ritual that didn't already have an English word for it (you could maybe substitute "placate" or "show deference" but these can have other meanings in different contexts). Words from other languages like "karaoke", "restaurant" and "prima donna" have always been incorporated into English when no specific substitute works well enough (of course this isn't specific to English, but it is a very English habit). Your Mexican example would be using (I assume?) the Spanish of whatever word would work just as well in English, and I've personally used and seen people use words like "bruh" and "yo" with lots of different people. In fact, where I'm from "bruh" is a very typical "white" thing to say.
  - BoorishBears 7y ago
    All your of your comment is intentionally stripping things of context in a pathetic attempt disarm a fair argument without addressing the actual substance of it. Saying “kowtow”, “bruh”, “what’s good”. Not a problem. Someone who never says “bruh” or “what’s good” suddenly talking like they’re extras in a Migos music video to their black coworker is not cool. Saying kowtow, but only in reference to Asians and always using “appease” in other contexts, is not cool. Yeah I know HN is mostly white guys who squirm at the idea of race and think “I don’t see color” is an ok thing to say, but if you’re not going to at least try and take someone's arguments for full value, even if you don’t agree, don’t even respond, it’s insulting otherwise.
    - Chris_Chambers 7y ago
      Who says “I don’t see color”? Sounds like something a white woman would say in 1996. It’s 2019, everyone has been radicalized by their propaganda outlet of choice, including you. White people on HN either lean far to the left and wholeheartedly support your language policing and anti-white sentiment, or they’re former libertarians who are now barely closeted neo-Nazis who would be happy to see you deported or killed.
    - michaelscott 7y ago
      I don't have an issue with the base argument, I agree with it. I'm saying the examples are false equivalences because in the context of the original comment, they are. There's nothing in the original comment that indicates the use of the word "only in reference to Asians" because you have a sample size of 1 (again, I've personally heard it used in non-Asian contexts too). Making an assumption about the intent of someone's comment doesn't fit my definition of a "valuable argument" outside of more context, but as I said I agree with the general issue with individuals using certain words only in certain racial contexts.
      - BoorishBears 7y ago
        Point out which part of my comment is saying I’m talking about a single comment and not a general trend in the US. This kind of useless deflection is insulting to basic intelligence.
        michaelscott 7y ago
        I'm not sure if you've picked up the main point of what I'm saying or are just performing some deflection of your own, but it stands nevertheless: you've got a reasonable argument that I get behind, just make your argument without using misleading examples.
- z2 7y ago
  Not sure why others seem to disagree, but kow-tow indeed conjures up fu manchu-esque images, a sort of comical or repugnant representation of groveling associated exclusively with Asian culture. Exactly as you say, it's not necessarily racist in intention of using the term as subservience, but racial nonetheless. Separately, the actual kau-tau seems to have meant something specific as a ritual of respect. Used here, its generalization to mean forced groveling or appeasement is strange, as it implies the person or entity doing it is a loser.
  - BoorishBears 7y ago
    Because this is the “I don’t see color” crowd and it makes them uncomfortable to talk about anything racial, so they’d rather bury your comments about it and not have to look. As if to prove a point, both this comment and another were downvoted literally before the page finished refreshing after submission There is no way someone could have read both in the time it took my page to refresh, but it’s not nice to acknowledge race exists for these people so that’s that...
- cthalupa 7y ago
  I know that this is anecdotal and not necessarily representative of anything, but, I hear people use kowtow in all sorts of context, and certainly not limited to references to China or other Asian nations/ethnicities. In fact, it's been so universal I never even made the connection or wondered about the etymology. Finding out that it's a loan word from Cantonese is something I learned due to this thread.

Why wouldn't you use in reference to China? It originates from the Cantonese language (probably because of the amount of Cantonese speakers in San Francisco back in the day) and in China.

BoorishBears 7y ago

Most people will know what it means if I say el <insert word>. But it's like if I only say el <insert word> when my Mexican friend is around. Just weird, and not necessary. Or since that example apparently goes over some of your heads, it’s like how some of you only use “bruh” and “yo” and “what’s good” around me, your black coworker and no one else.

michaelscott 7y ago
All your examples are false equivalences. The word "kowtow" is a perfect description of a relatively complicated ritual that didn't already have an English word for it (you could maybe substitute "placate" or "show deference" but these can have other meanings in different contexts). Words from other languages like "karaoke", "restaurant" and "prima donna" have always been incorporated into English when no specific substitute works well enough (of course this isn't specific to English, but it is a very English habit). Your Mexican example would be using (I assume?) the Spanish of whatever word would work just as well in English, and I've personally used and seen people use words like "bruh" and "yo" with lots of different people. In fact, where I'm from "bruh" is a very typical "white" thing to say.
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  All your of your comment is intentionally stripping things of context in a pathetic attempt disarm a fair argument without addressing the actual substance of it. Saying “kowtow”, “bruh”, “what’s good”. Not a problem. Someone who never says “bruh” or “what’s good” suddenly talking like they’re extras in a Migos music video to their black coworker is not cool. Saying kowtow, but only in reference to Asians and always using “appease” in other contexts, is not cool. Yeah I know HN is mostly white guys who squirm at the idea of race and think “I don’t see color” is an ok thing to say, but if you’re not going to at least try and take someone's arguments for full value, even if you don’t agree, don’t even respond, it’s insulting otherwise.
  - Chris_Chambers 7y ago
    Who says “I don’t see color”? Sounds like something a white woman would say in 1996. It’s 2019, everyone has been radicalized by their propaganda outlet of choice, including you. White people on HN either lean far to the left and wholeheartedly support your language policing and anti-white sentiment, or they’re former libertarians who are now barely closeted neo-Nazis who would be happy to see you deported or killed.
  - michaelscott 7y ago
    I don't have an issue with the base argument, I agree with it. I'm saying the examples are false equivalences because in the context of the original comment, they are. There's nothing in the original comment that indicates the use of the word "only in reference to Asians" because you have a sample size of 1 (again, I've personally heard it used in non-Asian contexts too). Making an assumption about the intent of someone's comment doesn't fit my definition of a "valuable argument" outside of more context, but as I said I agree with the general issue with individuals using certain words only in certain racial contexts.
    - BoorishBears 7y ago
      Point out which part of my comment is saying I’m talking about a single comment and not a general trend in the US. This kind of useless deflection is insulting to basic intelligence.
      - michaelscott 7y ago
        I'm not sure if you've picked up the main point of what I'm saying or are just performing some deflection of your own, but it stands nevertheless: you've got a reasonable argument that I get behind, just make your argument without using misleading examples.
z2 7y ago
Not sure why others seem to disagree, but kow-tow indeed conjures up fu manchu-esque images, a sort of comical or repugnant representation of groveling associated exclusively with Asian culture. Exactly as you say, it's not necessarily racist in intention of using the term as subservience, but racial nonetheless. Separately, the actual kau-tau seems to have meant something specific as a ritual of respect. Used here, its generalization to mean forced groveling or appeasement is strange, as it implies the person or entity doing it is a loser.
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  Because this is the “I don’t see color” crowd and it makes them uncomfortable to talk about anything racial, so they’d rather bury your comments about it and not have to look. As if to prove a point, both this comment and another were downvoted literally before the page finished refreshing after submission There is no way someone could have read both in the time it took my page to refresh, but it’s not nice to acknowledge race exists for these people so that’s that...
cthalupa 7y ago
I know that this is anecdotal and not necessarily representative of anything, but, I hear people use kowtow in all sorts of context, and certainly not limited to references to China or other Asian nations/ethnicities. In fact, it's been so universal I never even made the connection or wondered about the etymology. Finding out that it's a loan word from Cantonese is something I learned due to this thread.