8 ms·

I don't really have a horse in this race, but the reason women might want to fit in to man-sized roles is because all the high-paying roles are man-sized.

mpfundstein 8y ago
And because money (and power) is all that counts nowadays right? There was a time where it was not a shame if a woman chose to stay at home. Nowadays, people toll their eyes if my wife tells them about her (very own) choice..
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  I think this post was made in bad faith to the argument of the poster. Money and therefore power matter a lot in a society in which you must purchase almost all of your basic goods with it. housing, food, water, etc. Up to a certain point money does track with quality of life, and the point in which it ceases to be the case is well above median wealth. If we were to evaluate that it is normal for women to have less paying jobs because women’s work is worth less pay, then the knock off effect is that women aren’t worth a quality of life equal to men on average. Also, I am under the impression that rolling ones eyes at a choice to stay at home is a continued devaluation of women’s work. The upkeep of a living location and the caring of any little humans is a significant labor, such that upon outsourcing is often equivalent to a median yearly salary of a single person. However because there isn’t a common framework to evaluate worth beyond money in the society I live in, unpaid labor isn’t valued.
- wccrawford 8y ago
  While I fully agree that people should accept that some people are driven by things other than money, and even beyond that, it should be perfectly socially acceptable to be driven by other goals instead... People who are driven by money, no matter gender, skin color, etc shouldn't be held back from it because of preconceptions about their ability. Only their actual ability should matter.
- UncleMeat 8y ago
  Yet the us does not have mandatory maternity leave. Money is choices. That people must sacrifice it in order to do things like raise children is evidence that our society does not value homemaking.
  - AvocadoPanic 8y ago
    Or that our society values self-sufficiency and two-parrent households where one parent cares for the children in the home.
    - amanaplanacanal 8y ago
      I'm not sure this follows. Is the idea that lack of maternity leave will cause two-parent households? What is the mechanism?
dijit 8y ago
I don't really have a solid response to that argument other than that I think we as a society need to stop emphasising traits that are predominantly held by men and start appreciating the traits that are predominantly held by women, those traits are incredibly valuable. To give a concrete example: Dame Caroline Haslett who was the President of the Women's Engineering Society in Britain created objectively the safest electrical outlet and plugging mechanism ever conceived (as long as you don't step on one). There was no such mandate for it to be so safe, you could argue that a man could have done exactly the same but I'd rather consider that she was being extremely empathetic as to how the device would be used and that safety in this area would quite literally save the lives of men, women and children. A world without her contribution would be a lesser one, but I would argue that it was made with her femininity, not with how much she filled a man-shaped role.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  >but I'd rather consider that she was being extremely empathetic Believing science is one thing, but that sounds like exactly the sort of "gendered narrative building" that feminists are trying to fight against. When they say stuff like "gender roles are fictional," a large part of it is due to people inventing stories in their heads about gender roles that aren't true. I think that it's fair to not try to add anything beyond what's demonstrably there.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - AlexB138 8y ago
    > I think that it's fair to not try to add anything beyond what's demonstrably there. Why? If peoples' experiences and psychology (in my layman's understanding of agreeableness) show that women tend to be more empathetic than men, it seems perfectly reasonable for them to suggest that that may have benefited an inventor in a fantastic discovery they made. People have no obligation to buy into others' narratives. Groups can claim whatever they want is fictional, it doesn't mean everyone else has to censor their speech accordingly. I thought the person you were responding to was making a very thoughtful point, and one that was very respectful of women and the valuable insight some of them have that is often overlooked.
threeseed 8y ago
Did you choose your role just because it is high-paying ? Or were there are other factors e.g. stimulating, flexible, empowering, creative etc. Because pretty sure women are selecting roles for a range of different factors as well. You know because all women aren't the same. Just like all men aren't the same.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  Definitely the money. I can think of several career paths that likely would likely have made me happier but I didn't pursue them because I was able to do computer programming and why throw that potential money away.
  - dijit 8y ago
    That's actually quite sad. But you said it yourself: "several career paths would likely have made me happier". What's the point in living if not to be happy? Money is just a means to avoid unhappiness. It's been proven time and time again that after a decent income money does not increase happiness.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      I've yet to find the point where more money doesn't make me happier. Money buys a lot of things that make you happy. Money is also more much more capable of making one's family happy than a job I like more than my current one is. It's not like I hate my job. I just like it less than the blue collar stuff I did before I got my degree. I don't have a trust fund. I have to make my own living and I optimized for doing that. Waxing poetic about "occupational fulfillment" is something the upper classes do after they've been upper class long enough to forget how well they have it. I don't care what other people think. Money is making me happy. My property is covered in classic cars in various states of disrepair, my fridge always has beer in it. My life is quite comfortable thanks to money. The ease with which money can be converted into things that bring me joy is unparalleled. Not taking all that for granted probably helps a lot.
tomohawk 8y ago
The worst jobs out there are male dominated, and we don't see some big push to get more women working in them. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/04/20/the-worst-jobs-in-america/39364439/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/04/20/the-worst-jo...
- burkaman 8y ago
  Did you actually look at this list? 1. Taxi Driver: Uber and Lyft have significantly increased the number of women, and there are lots of efforts to get more women involved. https://www.gosafr.com/ https://www.gosafr.com/ is one example. 2. Logger: This is probably the kind of job you were thinking of. Logging is completely male dominated, but there are some small efforts at change: https://www.pressherald.com/2019/03/17/the-axe-women-loggers-of-maine-emphasize-maines-forestry-heritage/ https://www.pressherald.com/2019/03/17/the-axe-women-loggers... and https://www.tigercat.com/between-the-branches/logger-girl/ https://www.tigercat.com/between-the-branches/logger-girl/ 3. Newspaper reporter: Majority male, but not overwhelmingly. Definitely a big push to equalize the field: http://www.womensmediacenter.com/reports/the-status-of-women-in-u.s.-media-2017 http://www.womensmediacenter.com/reports/the-status-of-women... 4. Retail salesperson: Majority women. 5. Enlisted military personnel: Hard to summarize here, but issues around women in the US military come up quite frequently in Congress and elsewhere, and the history of increasing participation and equality is long. 6. Corrections officer: Women were 37% of adult officers and 51% of juvenile officers in 2007 (http://www.corrections.com/articles/21703-women-as-corrections-professionals http://www.corrections.com/articles/21703-women-as-correctio...). There is a push to increase equality: https://www.correctionsone.com/women-in-corrections/ https://www.correctionsone.com/women-in-corrections/ 7. Disc jockey: Hard to find exact stats, but it's the same story as everywhere else in modern society. Used to be completely male dominated, now women are increasingly entering the industry and fighting against entrenched stereotypes. A random article: https://www.laweekly.com/music/women-djs-are-out-there-clubs-and-festivals-just-need-to-book-them-7091548 https://www.laweekly.com/music/women-djs-are-out-there-clubs... 8. Broadcaster: Feel like I'm starting to repeat myself. It's the same story as everywhere else in the media. Look at the Women's Media Center and other organizations for evidence of a push. 9. Advertising salesperson: Is this the kind of job you thought was on this list? Majority women, apparently: https://datausa.io/profile/soc/112011/#demographics https://datausa.io/profile/soc/112011/#demographics 10. Painter: Seems to be similar to logging. I honestly don't know why. Presumably it's historically male (like everything), and it's not a particularly desirable career for anyone. etc. Industries like logging and painting are outliers. There are some jobs that are so physically demanding that men have a significant innate advantage, but there's no natural reason for any industry to be 95+% male.
squish78 8y ago
We need more women on the oil rigs
roenxi 8y ago
But are the high paying roles man-sized or are the men shaping themselves to the high-paying roles? There is evidence that women are judged by appearance and men by financial success. Even a mild effect would be more than enough to skew the outcomes; it would impact the more competitive representatives of each gender.
- MRD85 8y ago
  If being an aged care nurse suddenly paid handsomely I would bet that you'd find the field full of men in a mid term. Men make a habit out of taking whatever work makes them the best money.
strictfp 8y ago
This. I think we have to dismantle roles which have extreme expectations. If you're expected to be available 24/7 and basically abandon your family for your job, it's something which overwhelming selects for men, who have that classic role in society. I think this is the most important question to solve if we want more equal outcome in worklife.
belorn 8y ago
It not about high-paying roles. The industries that are talked about in gender segregation discussions are those that are high-paying, high social status jobs. A big difference. When I was young the highest paying job direct out of high school was underwater welder. Not many teenage girls are signing up for that program, nor are there much political interest to get 50/50 gender ration for jobs that work in the dark, dangerous, on rusty oil rigs far away from land. In a bit of irony, the same can be said for professions dominated by women. Hired midwifes during the summer vacation months here in Sweden are getting salaries up to 9k a month. Very few people here in Sweden has a monthly pay that high. Demand can skyrocket when you only recruit from half the population, at which point the employer will pay what the market demands.

mpfundstein 8y ago

And because money (and power) is all that counts nowadays right? There was a time where it was not a shame if a woman chose to stay at home. Nowadays, people toll their eyes if my wife tells them about her (very own) choice..

SolaceQuantum 8y ago
I think this post was made in bad faith to the argument of the poster. Money and therefore power matter a lot in a society in which you must purchase almost all of your basic goods with it. housing, food, water, etc. Up to a certain point money does track with quality of life, and the point in which it ceases to be the case is well above median wealth. If we were to evaluate that it is normal for women to have less paying jobs because women’s work is worth less pay, then the knock off effect is that women aren’t worth a quality of life equal to men on average. Also, I am under the impression that rolling ones eyes at a choice to stay at home is a continued devaluation of women’s work. The upkeep of a living location and the caring of any little humans is a significant labor, such that upon outsourcing is often equivalent to a median yearly salary of a single person. However because there isn’t a common framework to evaluate worth beyond money in the society I live in, unpaid labor isn’t valued.
wccrawford 8y ago
While I fully agree that people should accept that some people are driven by things other than money, and even beyond that, it should be perfectly socially acceptable to be driven by other goals instead... People who are driven by money, no matter gender, skin color, etc shouldn't be held back from it because of preconceptions about their ability. Only their actual ability should matter.
UncleMeat 8y ago
Yet the us does not have mandatory maternity leave. Money is choices. That people must sacrifice it in order to do things like raise children is evidence that our society does not value homemaking.
- AvocadoPanic 8y ago
  Or that our society values self-sufficiency and two-parrent households where one parent cares for the children in the home.
  - amanaplanacanal 8y ago
    I'm not sure this follows. Is the idea that lack of maternity leave will cause two-parent households? What is the mechanism?

dijit 8y ago

I don't really have a solid response to that argument other than that I think we as a society need to stop emphasising traits that are predominantly held by men and start appreciating the traits that are predominantly held by women, those traits are incredibly valuable. To give a concrete example: Dame Caroline Haslett who was the President of the Women's Engineering Society in Britain created objectively the safest electrical outlet and plugging mechanism ever conceived (as long as you don't step on one). There was no such mandate for it to be so safe, you could argue that a man could have done exactly the same but I'd rather consider that she was being extremely empathetic as to how the device would be used and that safety in this area would quite literally save the lives of men, women and children. A world without her contribution would be a lesser one, but I would argue that it was made with her femininity, not with how much she filled a man-shaped role.

whatshisface 8y ago
>but I'd rather consider that she was being extremely empathetic Believing science is one thing, but that sounds like exactly the sort of "gendered narrative building" that feminists are trying to fight against. When they say stuff like "gender roles are fictional," a large part of it is due to people inventing stories in their heads about gender roles that aren't true. I think that it's fair to not try to add anything beyond what's demonstrably there.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- AlexB138 8y ago
  > I think that it's fair to not try to add anything beyond what's demonstrably there. Why? If peoples' experiences and psychology (in my layman's understanding of agreeableness) show that women tend to be more empathetic than men, it seems perfectly reasonable for them to suggest that that may have benefited an inventor in a fantastic discovery they made. People have no obligation to buy into others' narratives. Groups can claim whatever they want is fictional, it doesn't mean everyone else has to censor their speech accordingly. I thought the person you were responding to was making a very thoughtful point, and one that was very respectful of women and the valuable insight some of them have that is often overlooked.

threeseed 8y ago

Did you choose your role just because it is high-paying ? Or were there are other factors e.g. stimulating, flexible, empowering, creative etc. Because pretty sure women are selecting roles for a range of different factors as well. You know because all women aren't the same. Just like all men aren't the same.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Definitely the money. I can think of several career paths that likely would likely have made me happier but I didn't pursue them because I was able to do computer programming and why throw that potential money away.
- dijit 8y ago
  That's actually quite sad. But you said it yourself: "several career paths would likely have made me happier". What's the point in living if not to be happy? Money is just a means to avoid unhappiness. It's been proven time and time again that after a decent income money does not increase happiness.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    I've yet to find the point where more money doesn't make me happier. Money buys a lot of things that make you happy. Money is also more much more capable of making one's family happy than a job I like more than my current one is. It's not like I hate my job. I just like it less than the blue collar stuff I did before I got my degree. I don't have a trust fund. I have to make my own living and I optimized for doing that. Waxing poetic about "occupational fulfillment" is something the upper classes do after they've been upper class long enough to forget how well they have it. I don't care what other people think. Money is making me happy. My property is covered in classic cars in various states of disrepair, my fridge always has beer in it. My life is quite comfortable thanks to money. The ease with which money can be converted into things that bring me joy is unparalleled. Not taking all that for granted probably helps a lot.

tomohawk 8y ago

The worst jobs out there are male dominated, and we don't see some big push to get more women working in them. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/04/20/the-worst-jobs-in-america/39364439/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/04/20/the-worst-jo...

burkaman 8y ago
Did you actually look at this list? 1. Taxi Driver: Uber and Lyft have significantly increased the number of women, and there are lots of efforts to get more women involved. https://www.gosafr.com/ https://www.gosafr.com/ is one example. 2. Logger: This is probably the kind of job you were thinking of. Logging is completely male dominated, but there are some small efforts at change: https://www.pressherald.com/2019/03/17/the-axe-women-loggers-of-maine-emphasize-maines-forestry-heritage/ https://www.pressherald.com/2019/03/17/the-axe-women-loggers... and https://www.tigercat.com/between-the-branches/logger-girl/ https://www.tigercat.com/between-the-branches/logger-girl/ 3. Newspaper reporter: Majority male, but not overwhelmingly. Definitely a big push to equalize the field: http://www.womensmediacenter.com/reports/the-status-of-women-in-u.s.-media-2017 http://www.womensmediacenter.com/reports/the-status-of-women... 4. Retail salesperson: Majority women. 5. Enlisted military personnel: Hard to summarize here, but issues around women in the US military come up quite frequently in Congress and elsewhere, and the history of increasing participation and equality is long. 6. Corrections officer: Women were 37% of adult officers and 51% of juvenile officers in 2007 (http://www.corrections.com/articles/21703-women-as-corrections-professionals http://www.corrections.com/articles/21703-women-as-correctio...). There is a push to increase equality: https://www.correctionsone.com/women-in-corrections/ https://www.correctionsone.com/women-in-corrections/ 7. Disc jockey: Hard to find exact stats, but it's the same story as everywhere else in modern society. Used to be completely male dominated, now women are increasingly entering the industry and fighting against entrenched stereotypes. A random article: https://www.laweekly.com/music/women-djs-are-out-there-clubs-and-festivals-just-need-to-book-them-7091548 https://www.laweekly.com/music/women-djs-are-out-there-clubs... 8. Broadcaster: Feel like I'm starting to repeat myself. It's the same story as everywhere else in the media. Look at the Women's Media Center and other organizations for evidence of a push. 9. Advertising salesperson: Is this the kind of job you thought was on this list? Majority women, apparently: https://datausa.io/profile/soc/112011/#demographics https://datausa.io/profile/soc/112011/#demographics 10. Painter: Seems to be similar to logging. I honestly don't know why. Presumably it's historically male (like everything), and it's not a particularly desirable career for anyone. etc. Industries like logging and painting are outliers. There are some jobs that are so physically demanding that men have a significant innate advantage, but there's no natural reason for any industry to be 95+% male.

squish78 8y ago

We need more women on the oil rigs

roenxi 8y ago

But are the high paying roles man-sized or are the men shaping themselves to the high-paying roles? There is evidence that women are judged by appearance and men by financial success. Even a mild effect would be more than enough to skew the outcomes; it would impact the more competitive representatives of each gender.

MRD85 8y ago
If being an aged care nurse suddenly paid handsomely I would bet that you'd find the field full of men in a mid term. Men make a habit out of taking whatever work makes them the best money.

strictfp 8y ago

This. I think we have to dismantle roles which have extreme expectations. If you're expected to be available 24/7 and basically abandon your family for your job, it's something which overwhelming selects for men, who have that classic role in society. I think this is the most important question to solve if we want more equal outcome in worklife.

belorn 8y ago

It not about high-paying roles. The industries that are talked about in gender segregation discussions are those that are high-paying, high social status jobs. A big difference. When I was young the highest paying job direct out of high school was underwater welder. Not many teenage girls are signing up for that program, nor are there much political interest to get 50/50 gender ration for jobs that work in the dark, dangerous, on rusty oil rigs far away from land. In a bit of irony, the same can be said for professions dominated by women. Hired midwifes during the summer vacation months here in Sweden are getting salaries up to 9k a month. Very few people here in Sweden has a monthly pay that high. Demand can skyrocket when you only recruit from half the population, at which point the employer will pay what the market demands.