9 ms·

A quote about salary, that I bookmarked as I could see myself making the same mistake: "Salaries never stay secrets forever. Hiding them only delays the inevit

A quote about salary, that I bookmarked as I could see myself making the same mistake: "Salaries never stay secrets forever. Hiding them only delays the inevitable. Last year we were having a discussion at lunch. Coworker was building a new house, and when it came to the numbers it was let loose that it was going to cost about $700K. This didn't seem like much, except to a young guy that joined the previous year and had done nothing but kick ass and take names..." (edited for brevity). "...The conversation ended up in numbers. Coworker building the house pulled about $140K base (median for a programmer was probably $125K), and his bonus nearly matched the new guy's salary, which was an insulting $60K -- and got cut out of the bonus and raise in January for not being there a full year, only 11 months. Turns out he was a doormat in negotiating, though his salary history was cringeworthy. It pained everyone to hear it, considering how nice of a guy he was. In all honestly, $60K was a big step up for him. Worst of all, this wasn't a cheap market (Boston). The guy probably shortchanged himself well over a half-million dollars in the past decade. This was someone who voluntarily put in long hours and went out of his way to teach others, and did everything he could to help other departments like operations and other teams. On top, he was beyond frugal. Supposedly he saved something around 40% of his take home pay, despite living alone in Boston. He grew up in a trailer park. He spent the next day in non-stop meetings with HR, his manager and the CTO. That Friday he simply handed in his badge without a word, walked out and never came back. Until 3 months later. As a consultant. At $175/hour." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2439478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2439478

stakhanov 7y ago
Salary-porn seems to be a category that generally gets a lot of attention on HN. Personally, I feel a bit ambivalent about it. Obviously it's useful to be able to compare & benchmark, because one should go into any decision-making process being well armed with information. But on the other hand: The information exchanged is never enough to truly contextualize the numbers appropriately, and it's a potential source of huge amounts of cognitive dissonance. You have to be pretty good at being a stoic to try to break the information down to something objective and not let it get to you. For example: The $175/hour number you just mentioned, and the fact that you seemed to imply that you're taking it for granted that it represents a successful outcome would be clearly a source of cognitive dissonance for most people. -- If he manages to do 2000 hours at $175 every year, that would be $350k which would be impressive. But then it may be nothing: if it is a highly specialized thing where you don't manage to get a fulltime workload out of a year, where you might spend the majority of your time with non-billable hours for project acquision, where you maybe have to cover costs of travel or time & money for certifications, where you have to carry high risk, etc. etc. ...it is usually impossible to properly resolve such questions to the point where it's useful for benchmarking and for extracting conclusions that are actionable to yourself. But the cognitive dissonance remains.
- stakhanov 7y ago
  ...downvoting for disagreeing with you, without presenting a counter-argument. That's HN for you. Great way to build an echo-chamber.
  - cromulent 7y ago
    Please don't complain about downvoting. You're not disagreeing with him, you are disagreeing with a post by someone else from 8 years ago, that he bookmarked in order to prevent himself from making the same mistake.
  - osrec 7y ago
    I wasn't a down voter, but I understand their sentiment with respect to your comment. You being ambivalent suggests that you're okay with less informed people being screwed. I think that's grossly unfair on a bunch of people, especially the highly technical folk that can't bullshit their way to a good pay packet, despite being technically capable. Keeping salaries open is a good thing in my opinion. The fact that companies at times will discipline employees for discussing salaries should make you see that it's a bit of smoke and mirrors used by managers to screw people, while paying themselves handsomely. It's total rubbish, and quite frankly does more harm than good.
    - Not_anchovie 7y ago
      This is how HN and all other social commentary systems work. People downvote or ban without even a polite dissection of how you could be right or wrong. If someone doesn't want you to exist - you won't.
- HenryBemis 7y ago
  I won't downvote, I want your opinion to be visible so other people can read this. I am one of those 'suckers' that left a job/career (call it what you will) in the Big4 to go solo. Apart from boosting my annual income x4, I am no longer involved in backstabing, politics, shitstorms, and other permanent employment 'pleasantries'. The C-levels who sign my invoices keep me out and away from all that. I have gained their trust and they keep me around to get-the-job-done. I do get some surprises every now and then, but nothing I can't dance around those. The gig economy (up to a level) works for me. >where you don't manage to get a fulltime workload out of a year I only NEED to work 3 months in a year, and spend the other 9 sitting on my behind doing my hobbies. Of course I work as much as possible (8h/day - 5d/week) and I do take some time off (by European 'standard'). I found it that once I start monitoring the contracting market, getting weekly alerts, see the trends, etc. it is possible to build on your existing skillset to make sure you remain relevant. E.g. anyone in Europe with a good GRC knowledge had plenty of time to get in shape for GDPR.
agumonkey 7y ago
I have a similar mindset, I hate money games.. it voids my soul. Money at best buys you peace of mind and I don't understand how societies ended up creating noise to justify this.
- ignoramous 7y ago
  I feel you, and you might not be alone. Apologies for unsolicited advice: It is better to heed to reality sooner. One way to do that is not to change the way you think, but the way you live [0][1]. Modify your work and life such that you can make the maximum out of what the world has to offer [2]. Another interesting insight is the fact that the conclusion arrived to from a problem is not always the right one. For instance, when Henry Ford asked customers what they wanted, they said 'faster horse' when in reality they wanted to get from point A to point B as fast as possible. If you think you hate money games, perhaps it's worth being inquisitive about how you arrived at that conclusion-- what's the underlying cause: is it because you find the economic system is rigged, or because you have had bad luck with money and investments, or you have seen money gained by folks around you through means you don't agree with, or... [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19589434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19589434 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16693885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16693885 [2] http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    > conclusion arrived to from a problem is not always the right one Very true. I'm also very reflective about my own thinking process. Why I don't like money is that it's too relativistic. I can get money by doing something useless that someone believes has value. For instance neighbors pay me to do the most simplest tasks on their computers. To me this has no value, I now accept the money because I'm a bit angry as the world requires me to make money. In my few IT jobs I found the work was moot and drowned into accidental complexity. But that doesn't stop the world from playing the money game. Raises, politics, inflated product costs, improper jobs .. It happens in other places too. Basically a lot of sales is super dirty and driven by competition economics only. Maybe it's not money but the average western person mindset that I have a problem with. I find it very asocial and inhuman. I'd rather carry an old person's bag.
johnchristopher 7y ago
Just an anecdote: I sometime drop to friends and acquaintances that salary is one of the last taboo in our modern western society but it's a really strong one. Either it ends there with a joke comment or it sparks a conversation about an individual's worth in society and among friends.
- ohaideredevs 7y ago
  It just goes to show that people DO associate their worth with their salary. I talk about my salary with my friends because we realize that it's all kind of a crapshoot and/or a matter of choosing whether or not to sell your soul.
  - johnchristopher 7y ago
    That's a point I usually bring in the conversation: for all our talk about equality, sharing resources, etc. we still tend to associate with people who earn in the same bracket.
- hobofan 7y ago
  I'm wondering if that's a "previous generation" thing that's slowly going away, or if I'm just living in a bubble. I know (or have known and forgotten) the salary of most people in my extended peer group (25-30 year olds mostly). If the topic we are talking about is jobs, or a new job someone got, the person usually either flat out says it, or someone in the group will ask with little hesitation.
  - johnchristopher 7y ago
    How much do you and your extended peer group earn ? My initial reaction is that if you earning well above average and your peers as well then it's way easier than sharing that info with people earning way less. Or if you earn above the minimum wage but not by much you won't share with that SV hotshot.
    - hobofan 7y ago
grecy 7y ago
Keeping salaries secret is exactly the same as giving candy to a child and saying "Don't tell anyone about this". In both cases, the person giving the pay/candy has something to gain if it stays secret and the person on receiving end is being manipulated.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
siruncledrew 7y ago
Not to say this isn't true... it sounds like there is more to the story with this guy's salary history. If $125k is the ballpark median for a programmer in Boston, then how did the guy not notice he was getting <50% salary for the same role? Some people aren't good at negotiating; that's understandable. But not knowing he was settling for such a pay-cut is almost appalling. That company must have enjoyed him being there knowing they pulled a fast one on him. Maybe there is some shady backstory here or something else influencing the situation..?
- ido 7y ago
  I've worked in multiple companies (including current one) where there was a very wide distribution of salaries. This is not at all uncommon and a lot of people are clueless (partially because talking about wages is taboo). I'm not surprised at all by stories like the OP's.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    No one has to tell you what they make. There are plenty of websites like salary.com, paysa.com that will tell you average salariesfor your market. If you just have a halfway decent profile on LinkedIn recruiters will be calling you all of the time. You can occasionally see job postings with salary ranges.
ksec 7y ago
Being a nice guy to today's society often meant being that person in your story. I am also one of them. And after all these years is still no good at salary negotiation. And unless you are exceptionally good and could afford to do consultation, ( which isn't really a thing in my country ) you still have to suck it up. I know I am late. But I am starting to think may be claiming the ladder is a different set of skills.

stakhanov 7y ago

Salary-porn seems to be a category that generally gets a lot of attention on HN. Personally, I feel a bit ambivalent about it. Obviously it's useful to be able to compare & benchmark, because one should go into any decision-making process being well armed with information. But on the other hand: The information exchanged is never enough to truly contextualize the numbers appropriately, and it's a potential source of huge amounts of cognitive dissonance. You have to be pretty good at being a stoic to try to break the information down to something objective and not let it get to you. For example: The $175/hour number you just mentioned, and the fact that you seemed to imply that you're taking it for granted that it represents a successful outcome would be clearly a source of cognitive dissonance for most people. -- If he manages to do 2000 hours at $175 every year, that would be $350k which would be impressive. But then it may be nothing: if it is a highly specialized thing where you don't manage to get a fulltime workload out of a year, where you might spend the majority of your time with non-billable hours for project acquision, where you maybe have to cover costs of travel or time & money for certifications, where you have to carry high risk, etc. etc. ...it is usually impossible to properly resolve such questions to the point where it's useful for benchmarking and for extracting conclusions that are actionable to yourself. But the cognitive dissonance remains.

stakhanov 7y ago
...downvoting for disagreeing with you, without presenting a counter-argument. That's HN for you. Great way to build an echo-chamber.
- cromulent 7y ago
  Please don't complain about downvoting. You're not disagreeing with him, you are disagreeing with a post by someone else from 8 years ago, that he bookmarked in order to prevent himself from making the same mistake.
- osrec 7y ago
  I wasn't a down voter, but I understand their sentiment with respect to your comment. You being ambivalent suggests that you're okay with less informed people being screwed. I think that's grossly unfair on a bunch of people, especially the highly technical folk that can't bullshit their way to a good pay packet, despite being technically capable. Keeping salaries open is a good thing in my opinion. The fact that companies at times will discipline employees for discussing salaries should make you see that it's a bit of smoke and mirrors used by managers to screw people, while paying themselves handsomely. It's total rubbish, and quite frankly does more harm than good.
  - Not_anchovie 7y ago
    This is how HN and all other social commentary systems work. People downvote or ban without even a polite dissection of how you could be right or wrong. If someone doesn't want you to exist - you won't.
HenryBemis 7y ago
I won't downvote, I want your opinion to be visible so other people can read this. I am one of those 'suckers' that left a job/career (call it what you will) in the Big4 to go solo. Apart from boosting my annual income x4, I am no longer involved in backstabing, politics, shitstorms, and other permanent employment 'pleasantries'. The C-levels who sign my invoices keep me out and away from all that. I have gained their trust and they keep me around to get-the-job-done. I do get some surprises every now and then, but nothing I can't dance around those. The gig economy (up to a level) works for me. >where you don't manage to get a fulltime workload out of a year I only NEED to work 3 months in a year, and spend the other 9 sitting on my behind doing my hobbies. Of course I work as much as possible (8h/day - 5d/week) and I do take some time off (by European 'standard'). I found it that once I start monitoring the contracting market, getting weekly alerts, see the trends, etc. it is possible to build on your existing skillset to make sure you remain relevant. E.g. anyone in Europe with a good GRC knowledge had plenty of time to get in shape for GDPR.

agumonkey 7y ago

I have a similar mindset, I hate money games.. it voids my soul. Money at best buys you peace of mind and I don't understand how societies ended up creating noise to justify this.

ignoramous 7y ago
I feel you, and you might not be alone. Apologies for unsolicited advice: It is better to heed to reality sooner. One way to do that is not to change the way you think, but the way you live [0][1]. Modify your work and life such that you can make the maximum out of what the world has to offer [2]. Another interesting insight is the fact that the conclusion arrived to from a problem is not always the right one. For instance, when Henry Ford asked customers what they wanted, they said 'faster horse' when in reality they wanted to get from point A to point B as fast as possible. If you think you hate money games, perhaps it's worth being inquisitive about how you arrived at that conclusion-- what's the underlying cause: is it because you find the economic system is rigged, or because you have had bad luck with money and investments, or you have seen money gained by folks around you through means you don't agree with, or... [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19589434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19589434 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16693885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16693885 [2] http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html
- agumonkey 7y ago
  > conclusion arrived to from a problem is not always the right one Very true. I'm also very reflective about my own thinking process. Why I don't like money is that it's too relativistic. I can get money by doing something useless that someone believes has value. For instance neighbors pay me to do the most simplest tasks on their computers. To me this has no value, I now accept the money because I'm a bit angry as the world requires me to make money. In my few IT jobs I found the work was moot and drowned into accidental complexity. But that doesn't stop the world from playing the money game. Raises, politics, inflated product costs, improper jobs .. It happens in other places too. Basically a lot of sales is super dirty and driven by competition economics only. Maybe it's not money but the average western person mindset that I have a problem with. I find it very asocial and inhuman. I'd rather carry an old person's bag.

johnchristopher 7y ago

Just an anecdote: I sometime drop to friends and acquaintances that salary is one of the last taboo in our modern western society but it's a really strong one. Either it ends there with a joke comment or it sparks a conversation about an individual's worth in society and among friends.

ohaideredevs 7y ago
It just goes to show that people DO associate their worth with their salary. I talk about my salary with my friends because we realize that it's all kind of a crapshoot and/or a matter of choosing whether or not to sell your soul.
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  That's a point I usually bring in the conversation: for all our talk about equality, sharing resources, etc. we still tend to associate with people who earn in the same bracket.
hobofan 7y ago
I'm wondering if that's a "previous generation" thing that's slowly going away, or if I'm just living in a bubble. I know (or have known and forgotten) the salary of most people in my extended peer group (25-30 year olds mostly). If the topic we are talking about is jobs, or a new job someone got, the person usually either flat out says it, or someone in the group will ask with little hesitation.
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  How much do you and your extended peer group earn ? My initial reaction is that if you earning well above average and your peers as well then it's way easier than sharing that info with people earning way less. Or if you earn above the minimum wage but not by much you won't share with that SV hotshot.
  - hobofan 7y ago

grecy 7y ago

Keeping salaries secret is exactly the same as giving candy to a child and saying "Don't tell anyone about this". In both cases, the person giving the pay/candy has something to gain if it stays secret and the person on receiving end is being manipulated.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

siruncledrew 7y ago

Not to say this isn't true... it sounds like there is more to the story with this guy's salary history. If $125k is the ballpark median for a programmer in Boston, then how did the guy not notice he was getting <50% salary for the same role? Some people aren't good at negotiating; that's understandable. But not knowing he was settling for such a pay-cut is almost appalling. That company must have enjoyed him being there knowing they pulled a fast one on him. Maybe there is some shady backstory here or something else influencing the situation..?

ido 7y ago
I've worked in multiple companies (including current one) where there was a very wide distribution of salaries. This is not at all uncommon and a lot of people are clueless (partially because talking about wages is taboo). I'm not surprised at all by stories like the OP's.
- scarface74 7y ago
  No one has to tell you what they make. There are plenty of websites like salary.com, paysa.com that will tell you average salariesfor your market. If you just have a halfway decent profile on LinkedIn recruiters will be calling you all of the time. You can occasionally see job postings with salary ranges.

ksec 7y ago

Being a nice guy to today's society often meant being that person in your story. I am also one of them. And after all these years is still no good at salary negotiation. And unless you are exceptionally good and could afford to do consultation, ( which isn't really a thing in my country ) you still have to suck it up. I know I am late. But I am starting to think may be claiming the ladder is a different set of skills.