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American cars don't sell well on any market outside the US domestic one. If you need a tough vehicle for the desert, you buy a Toyota Land Cruiser, not a Chevy

American cars don't sell well on any market outside the US domestic one. If you need a tough vehicle for the desert, you buy a Toyota Land Cruiser, not a Chevy pickup truck. If you need a well-built, well-handling sports car you buy a Porsche Cayman and not a Ford Mustang. Comfy long-distance cruiser - a Mercedes E-class over a Cadillac CTS by a huge margin. The decision to buy an American car outside the US is completely irrational and emotional. In Europe it's mostly the posers who want to look rich to the untrained eye, by owning something rare that has a less advanced drivetrain and worse build quality than the comparable European and Japanese offerings.

benj111 8y ago
"The decision to buy an American car outside the US is completely irrational and emotional" To be fair, its also 'irrational and emotional' for most people in the US also. Patriotism isn't really 'rational'[1], and while keeping jobs in America is rational, unless you work in the car industry, the benefits of buying the right car outweigh the job/tax loss. This would apply to any country and any car industry BTW, I'm not having a dig at the US. [1] theres probably many books on this subject, and there are a great many rational elements to patriotism. Buying a car, just because it says 'made in X', I would contend isn't one of them.
- riffraff 8y ago
  there are probably the points of availability (dealerships and the likes), support ("you can always find a spare for a local made car, but you may have to wait a month to source one from Korea"), and market distortion due to trade tariffs that make buying American cars in the US more rational than abroad. I don't know if those are real issues, but I heard them mentioned.
- rjf72 8y ago
  I don't think it has anything to do with patriotism in and of itself as this applies to most of everything. This $100 phone will cover literally 100% of my use cases in a 100% satisfactory fashion. This $200 (let alone $1000) phone will do the same. Let me think, I'll get the $1000 one! Companies have convinced people, particularly in the US, that products are reflections of themselves. In doing so they've convinced people to engage in completely irrational consumer behavior on a very wide scale. $1000 phones for one group of people is the same as $300 sneakers for another group -- wasting money to try to convey an image. That $1000 phone has parts worth a few hundred bucks, the sneakers are made for about $15. It's only with extreme irrationality that these would ever be viable business models. This is one of the big reasons I go out of my way to block any and all advertising. People don't think they're susceptible to advertising, yet look at society and people have become completely and absolutely irrational in their purchasing. I think it's clearly marketing and advertising driving this - patriotism is just one small subset of domains that is effectively targeted.
etaioinshrdlu 8y ago
The US has a 10% market share in China of all places (http://carsalesbase.com/china-car-sales-analysis-2018-brands/ http://carsalesbase.com/china-car-sales-analysis-2018-brands...), and apparently it used to be higher. That seems pretty decent actually. I've heard that the Chinese market enjoys American cars quite a bit. Let's not forget that Tesla is an American brand and is rather crushing it in certain non US markets such as Norway...
- nexuist 8y ago
  I think it's a fair assumption to say that Tesla is not like other American car brands and thus is not perceived in the same way by foreigners.
  - fit2rule 8y ago
    Anecdotal evidence: I've been involved in a few Tesla evaluations in Austria, and one thing that was common to all of them, conclusions-wise was "Tesla is a typically American car, but not your typical poorly-designed American car - just a bit better quality, in general, than your average American car" - but still, Tesla is not viewed anywhere nearly as high-quality in terms of production, as BMW or Mercedes-Benz models in this same market. People are only buying Tesla in Austria because of the energy factor - not because they prefer the design over what Mercedes-Benz can do. And the moment these European manufacturers start competing on energy features, Tesla becomes less palatable, except for those looking for that "counter-market American caché" ..
    - oblio 8y ago
      *cachet
- oblio 8y ago
  Norway is a small market.
riffraff 8y ago
> In Europe it's mostly the posers who want to look rich to the untrained eye what american car would give that impression? There are _some_ american style muscle cars but it's very tiny amount IME. OTOH, I do think there are a few Ford cars which are popular in europe (the Focus comes to mind), and Jeep has always had it's modicum of market share (arguably, it's european at this point).
- bluetomcat 8y ago
  > what american car would give that impression? The modern muscle cars, and the likes of Dodge Ram and Ford F150. Jeep is maybe the only exception. The Focus and the GM Opels are what I consider European volume cars, targeted mostly for the European market.
lagadu 8y ago
Ford does pretty well in Europe overall but that's with their European-style compacts (Ka, Fiesta and Focus) which they stopped selling in the US last year. Their Transit van is still wildly popular. The Fiesta for example has been around since the 80s and the current mk8 generation is pretty popular. I'd say they're a decent example of actually wanting to sell to car markets that's not the US.
chrisseaton 8y ago
Fords are a popular basic car in the UK. A Ford Mondeo (I think you call it Fusion) is the classic boring business car your employer might give you. Teslas are very prestigious cars here in the UK as well.
- derda 8y ago
  Fords sold in Europe are mostly European cars (developed and build in Europe for the European market). They are smaller but in many aspects objectively better than most US models.
  - mnky9800n 8y ago
    That doesn't make then less Ford
    - fit2rule 8y ago
      Why would Ford make the effort of producing Europe-only models if they didn't have problems selling the designed-for-America models in that market? Fact is, American cars, designed and built for the American market, don't do well in Europe and other markets because the quality levels are sub-standard in comparison with the competition - especially in Europe. Ford had to re-design models for sale in the European market because European consumers sniffed their noses at American cars - and rightly so, the quality difference between American and European designs really is quite obnoxious to buyers. American standards just don't stand a chance compared to European expectations.
    - askvictor 8y ago
      The particular car op mentioned (Ford Mondeo/fusion) shared a platform with the Volvo S60 (I think) when Ford owned Volvo. So it was designed together with Volvo, and built in Belgium. So it does make it a bit less Ford. I believe this is no longer the case with newer models since Ford spun off Volvo.
robben1234 8y ago
Mexico and a lot of Latin America countries are packed with US manufacturers cars.
stoolpigeon 8y ago
Mustangs had to be brought over for a long time and they were very unusual in Europe. Now that Ford builds a model for Europe, I see them a ton here in Hungary. It's easy to spot them because they have the license plate section sized properly for European plates. I'm not sure when they started building Mustangs for Europe, but I'm pretty sure it was in the last few years. This article talks about their popularity last year: https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2018/04/17/ford-mustang-is-worlds-best-selling-sports-coupe-for-third-strai.html https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2018/04...
- bluetomcat 8y ago
  > Now that Ford builds a model for Europe, I see them a ton here in Hungary. Which doesn't change the fact that it's an aspirational "style over substance" decision for the majority of buyers, especially those buying the 2.3 EcoBoost version. Recently I also do spot them quite frequently in Bulgaria, but their resale value on the second-hand market is tragic, they lose something like 70% of their value in 3 years even with low mileage.
  - pureliquidhw 8y ago
    The Mustang has been easy to hate, but in Ford's defense, the latest gen Mustang is on order of magnitude better than any mustang from the 80's on. Independent rear suspension gives it actual handling, and after a tune that 2.3 ecoboost can put down over 300hp, and still get ~30mpg. Given the price of a C class coupe or a base 911 vs a Mustang, there is a real value proposition, not just style over substance as you suggest. edit: Also, if you can get a 70% discount on a 2016 Mustang, that's an outrageous deal. That's a lot of car for ~10000 USD.
  - MarkSweep 8y ago
    At least in the American market, if you want the most horsepower per dollar, the Mustang is your best bet, particularly the 460 HP version. That is hardly “style over substance”. The Subaru WRX has the same number of horse/dollars as the EcoBoost Mustang. Otherwise cars have quite a bit fewer horse/dollars.

benj111 8y ago

"The decision to buy an American car outside the US is completely irrational and emotional" To be fair, its also 'irrational and emotional' for most people in the US also. Patriotism isn't really 'rational'[1], and while keeping jobs in America is rational, unless you work in the car industry, the benefits of buying the right car outweigh the job/tax loss. This would apply to any country and any car industry BTW, I'm not having a dig at the US. [1] theres probably many books on this subject, and there are a great many rational elements to patriotism. Buying a car, just because it says 'made in X', I would contend isn't one of them.

riffraff 8y ago
there are probably the points of availability (dealerships and the likes), support ("you can always find a spare for a local made car, but you may have to wait a month to source one from Korea"), and market distortion due to trade tariffs that make buying American cars in the US more rational than abroad. I don't know if those are real issues, but I heard them mentioned.
rjf72 8y ago
I don't think it has anything to do with patriotism in and of itself as this applies to most of everything. This $100 phone will cover literally 100% of my use cases in a 100% satisfactory fashion. This $200 (let alone $1000) phone will do the same. Let me think, I'll get the $1000 one! Companies have convinced people, particularly in the US, that products are reflections of themselves. In doing so they've convinced people to engage in completely irrational consumer behavior on a very wide scale. $1000 phones for one group of people is the same as $300 sneakers for another group -- wasting money to try to convey an image. That $1000 phone has parts worth a few hundred bucks, the sneakers are made for about $15. It's only with extreme irrationality that these would ever be viable business models. This is one of the big reasons I go out of my way to block any and all advertising. People don't think they're susceptible to advertising, yet look at society and people have become completely and absolutely irrational in their purchasing. I think it's clearly marketing and advertising driving this - patriotism is just one small subset of domains that is effectively targeted.

etaioinshrdlu 8y ago

The US has a 10% market share in China of all places (http://carsalesbase.com/china-car-sales-analysis-2018-brands/ http://carsalesbase.com/china-car-sales-analysis-2018-brands...), and apparently it used to be higher. That seems pretty decent actually. I've heard that the Chinese market enjoys American cars quite a bit. Let's not forget that Tesla is an American brand and is rather crushing it in certain non US markets such as Norway...

nexuist 8y ago
I think it's a fair assumption to say that Tesla is not like other American car brands and thus is not perceived in the same way by foreigners.
- fit2rule 8y ago
  Anecdotal evidence: I've been involved in a few Tesla evaluations in Austria, and one thing that was common to all of them, conclusions-wise was "Tesla is a typically American car, but not your typical poorly-designed American car - just a bit better quality, in general, than your average American car" - but still, Tesla is not viewed anywhere nearly as high-quality in terms of production, as BMW or Mercedes-Benz models in this same market. People are only buying Tesla in Austria because of the energy factor - not because they prefer the design over what Mercedes-Benz can do. And the moment these European manufacturers start competing on energy features, Tesla becomes less palatable, except for those looking for that "counter-market American caché" ..
  - oblio 8y ago
    *cachet
oblio 8y ago
Norway is a small market.

riffraff 8y ago

> In Europe it's mostly the posers who want to look rich to the untrained eye what american car would give that impression? There are _some_ american style muscle cars but it's very tiny amount IME. OTOH, I do think there are a few Ford cars which are popular in europe (the Focus comes to mind), and Jeep has always had it's modicum of market share (arguably, it's european at this point).

bluetomcat 8y ago
> what american car would give that impression? The modern muscle cars, and the likes of Dodge Ram and Ford F150. Jeep is maybe the only exception. The Focus and the GM Opels are what I consider European volume cars, targeted mostly for the European market.

lagadu 8y ago

Ford does pretty well in Europe overall but that's with their European-style compacts (Ka, Fiesta and Focus) which they stopped selling in the US last year. Their Transit van is still wildly popular. The Fiesta for example has been around since the 80s and the current mk8 generation is pretty popular. I'd say they're a decent example of actually wanting to sell to car markets that's not the US.

chrisseaton 8y ago

Fords are a popular basic car in the UK. A Ford Mondeo (I think you call it Fusion) is the classic boring business car your employer might give you. Teslas are very prestigious cars here in the UK as well.

derda 8y ago
Fords sold in Europe are mostly European cars (developed and build in Europe for the European market). They are smaller but in many aspects objectively better than most US models.
- mnky9800n 8y ago
  That doesn't make then less Ford
  - fit2rule 8y ago
    Why would Ford make the effort of producing Europe-only models if they didn't have problems selling the designed-for-America models in that market? Fact is, American cars, designed and built for the American market, don't do well in Europe and other markets because the quality levels are sub-standard in comparison with the competition - especially in Europe. Ford had to re-design models for sale in the European market because European consumers sniffed their noses at American cars - and rightly so, the quality difference between American and European designs really is quite obnoxious to buyers. American standards just don't stand a chance compared to European expectations.
  - askvictor 8y ago
    The particular car op mentioned (Ford Mondeo/fusion) shared a platform with the Volvo S60 (I think) when Ford owned Volvo. So it was designed together with Volvo, and built in Belgium. So it does make it a bit less Ford. I believe this is no longer the case with newer models since Ford spun off Volvo.

robben1234 8y ago

Mexico and a lot of Latin America countries are packed with US manufacturers cars.

stoolpigeon 8y ago

Mustangs had to be brought over for a long time and they were very unusual in Europe. Now that Ford builds a model for Europe, I see them a ton here in Hungary. It's easy to spot them because they have the license plate section sized properly for European plates. I'm not sure when they started building Mustangs for Europe, but I'm pretty sure it was in the last few years. This article talks about their popularity last year: https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2018/04/17/ford-mustang-is-worlds-best-selling-sports-coupe-for-third-strai.html https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2018/04...

bluetomcat 8y ago
> Now that Ford builds a model for Europe, I see them a ton here in Hungary. Which doesn't change the fact that it's an aspirational "style over substance" decision for the majority of buyers, especially those buying the 2.3 EcoBoost version. Recently I also do spot them quite frequently in Bulgaria, but their resale value on the second-hand market is tragic, they lose something like 70% of their value in 3 years even with low mileage.
- pureliquidhw 8y ago
  The Mustang has been easy to hate, but in Ford's defense, the latest gen Mustang is on order of magnitude better than any mustang from the 80's on. Independent rear suspension gives it actual handling, and after a tune that 2.3 ecoboost can put down over 300hp, and still get ~30mpg. Given the price of a C class coupe or a base 911 vs a Mustang, there is a real value proposition, not just style over substance as you suggest. edit: Also, if you can get a 70% discount on a 2016 Mustang, that's an outrageous deal. That's a lot of car for ~10000 USD.
- MarkSweep 8y ago
  At least in the American market, if you want the most horsepower per dollar, the Mustang is your best bet, particularly the 460 HP version. That is hardly “style over substance”. The Subaru WRX has the same number of horse/dollars as the EcoBoost Mustang. Otherwise cars have quite a bit fewer horse/dollars.