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Regardless of whether this is the "fault" of socialism, socialism demands a lot of centralized government power, which seems like the perfect cover for this kin

Regardless of whether this is the "fault" of socialism, socialism demands a lot of centralized government power, which seems like the perfect cover for this kind of horrible government. (Aside: I think a lot of social programs could be run quite well at a local level, but when a politician asks for immense power at the scale of a nation or large state, I get very worried.)

jeffdavis 8y ago
Getting a lot of downvotes for this comment, but could someone please explain where I'm going wrong? A lot of people think the way I do, so it would be helpful to explain. A country with a bright future just a couple decades ago experienced a truly remarkable decline after a socialist was elected. I'm sure there are other factors, but surely this is going to be seen as yet another failure of socialism. Whether this is because the socialism was not "implemented correctly" or not, clearly the socialist label has been used by a number of very bad people as a way to accumulate more power.
- alehul 8y ago
  For anyone reading: HN encourages us to comment if we disagree, not silently downvote, unless the comment lacks any relevant content, and doesn’t add to the conversation. This clearly is relevant, and it adds something to the conversation, whether or not you agree with it. If you’re unwilling to question whether you’re correct, you’ll never be able to adapt your views and become more correct. There’s no shame in being incorrect, if it takes you closer to correctness long-term. Please remember that, along with the principle of charity— very few people are here to troll. We’re here to critically think about the links and their meanings, consequences, and related debates.
- EdSharkey 8y ago
  I think you pushed enough buttons and simplified the issues enough that people who disagreed with you downvoted you. No big deal...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- nikita2206 8y ago
  It might not give you an answer but nevertheless quite interesting and might be enlightening to you, there’s a podcast called The History of Oil, it covers Venezuela among other countries.
- libraryatnight 8y ago
  I think you're being downvoted because specific questions about specific countries, like yours, end up being used as broad-sweeping scare tactics to avoid or shut down discussion of universal health care. In the U.S. even just socializing medicine is seen by some as total conversation to socialism, and in some of the more ignorant cases communism. I think your questions are triggering that emotional response.
bjourne 8y ago
Venezuela IS NOT a Socialist country! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le86H7Xfjrc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le86H7Xfjrc Even the United States has a larger state apparatus compared to the whole economy (38%). Add to that an insanely well-armed military and a president with almost unlimited power to do whatever the hell he wants using executive orders... Wrt the downvotes, people on HN have become big cry babies who downvote anything they disagree with. It sucks and it is destroying the site by stymieing rational discourse.
- jeffdavis 8y ago
  I didn't claim that Venezuela is a "true socialist" country (because no such thing exists). I am just saying that socialism is the perfect cover for a terrible government like the one in Venezuela, because it's the quickest route to immense power.
asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
It would be interesting to know the fraction of totalitarian governments that are socialist or communist. You could probably compile something based off [1] cross referenced with governance style. It is not clear to me that socialism is over-represented in the authoritarian set compared to the non-authoritarian states, but I haven't gone through the list rigorously. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
- tkel 8y ago
  lmfao, the democracy index is such a fucking joke. Developed by capitalists in the UK, It is so incredibly biased in favor of global neoliberal capitalism. Notice how nearly everywhere that isn't considered the "West" culturally is considered "not democracy". Nearly all of Africa, "not democracy". It's just a sad excuse to reinforce existing biases about the rest of the world. Biases which were many times orchestrated by politicians and corporations for their own benefit. Ultimately this index is just a tool for the ruling class to use to reinforce their global hegemony. Democracy is the empty excuse that global powers have used to exert their political and economic will for centuries. See Vietnam, Iraq, and now Venezuela.
- jeffdavis 8y ago
  I think we should consider the despots that use the socialist label, rather than try to figure out who is actually socialist or not.
pas 8y ago
I'm not a socialist. However, the claim that socialism necessiates a central gov is not universally accepted. Furthermore most socialists envision socialism as anarchism, as in self-governing workers' collectives, etc.

jeffdavis 8y ago

Getting a lot of downvotes for this comment, but could someone please explain where I'm going wrong? A lot of people think the way I do, so it would be helpful to explain. A country with a bright future just a couple decades ago experienced a truly remarkable decline after a socialist was elected. I'm sure there are other factors, but surely this is going to be seen as yet another failure of socialism. Whether this is because the socialism was not "implemented correctly" or not, clearly the socialist label has been used by a number of very bad people as a way to accumulate more power.

alehul 8y ago
For anyone reading: HN encourages us to comment if we disagree, not silently downvote, unless the comment lacks any relevant content, and doesn’t add to the conversation. This clearly is relevant, and it adds something to the conversation, whether or not you agree with it. If you’re unwilling to question whether you’re correct, you’ll never be able to adapt your views and become more correct. There’s no shame in being incorrect, if it takes you closer to correctness long-term. Please remember that, along with the principle of charity— very few people are here to troll. We’re here to critically think about the links and their meanings, consequences, and related debates.
EdSharkey 8y ago
I think you pushed enough buttons and simplified the issues enough that people who disagreed with you downvoted you. No big deal...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
nikita2206 8y ago
It might not give you an answer but nevertheless quite interesting and might be enlightening to you, there’s a podcast called The History of Oil, it covers Venezuela among other countries.
libraryatnight 8y ago
I think you're being downvoted because specific questions about specific countries, like yours, end up being used as broad-sweeping scare tactics to avoid or shut down discussion of universal health care. In the U.S. even just socializing medicine is seen by some as total conversation to socialism, and in some of the more ignorant cases communism. I think your questions are triggering that emotional response.

bjourne 8y ago

Venezuela IS NOT a Socialist country! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le86H7Xfjrc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le86H7Xfjrc Even the United States has a larger state apparatus compared to the whole economy (38%). Add to that an insanely well-armed military and a president with almost unlimited power to do whatever the hell he wants using executive orders... Wrt the downvotes, people on HN have become big cry babies who downvote anything they disagree with. It sucks and it is destroying the site by stymieing rational discourse.

jeffdavis 8y ago
I didn't claim that Venezuela is a "true socialist" country (because no such thing exists). I am just saying that socialism is the perfect cover for a terrible government like the one in Venezuela, because it's the quickest route to immense power.

asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago

It would be interesting to know the fraction of totalitarian governments that are socialist or communist. You could probably compile something based off [1] cross referenced with governance style. It is not clear to me that socialism is over-represented in the authoritarian set compared to the non-authoritarian states, but I haven't gone through the list rigorously. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

tkel 8y ago
lmfao, the democracy index is such a fucking joke. Developed by capitalists in the UK, It is so incredibly biased in favor of global neoliberal capitalism. Notice how nearly everywhere that isn't considered the "West" culturally is considered "not democracy". Nearly all of Africa, "not democracy". It's just a sad excuse to reinforce existing biases about the rest of the world. Biases which were many times orchestrated by politicians and corporations for their own benefit. Ultimately this index is just a tool for the ruling class to use to reinforce their global hegemony. Democracy is the empty excuse that global powers have used to exert their political and economic will for centuries. See Vietnam, Iraq, and now Venezuela.
jeffdavis 8y ago
I think we should consider the despots that use the socialist label, rather than try to figure out who is actually socialist or not.

pas 8y ago

I'm not a socialist. However, the claim that socialism necessiates a central gov is not universally accepted. Furthermore most socialists envision socialism as anarchism, as in self-governing workers' collectives, etc.